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Latest post Wed, Dec 12 2007 9:29 PM by Cool Breeze. 11 replies.
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Gencebay90  +  441720 Mon, 12 Nov 07 03:41 PM

Hi

One of my grammar books -Grammar in Context- tells the following about reductions in non-defining relative clauses:

Shortened constructions impossible

1- They spend a lot of time in their garden, which runs right down to a river ( ''right down to a river'' is underlined'')

2- David, who is going fishing with Harry, is his nephew

What I want to learn is why these sentences above can't be shortenedAnd about the reduction in defining relative clauses it says that if the sentence contain verbs that describe mental state, it can't be shortened. This is okay but in non-defining relative clauses the book shortenes a sentence with mental state i.e ''know''. Here is the sentence's being non-defining or defining the only difference???

Here is the example

Harry, who know how disappointed David was, gave him a special bait

Harry,knowing how disappointed David was, gave him a special bait

Thanks in advance

Smile [:)]

Joined on Sun, Sep 2 2007
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Gencebay90, 2 yr 10 days ago

Is there any opinion???

Please!

Cool Breeze  +  441884 Mon, 12 Nov 07 11:12 PM
Hi Gencebay

Sentence No. 1 has a realtive clause and if it were shortened  -  or as I prefer to say, if a clause equivalent were used  -  it would read:

They spend a lot of time in their garden running right down to a river.

That would be grammatically correct but it would mean that these people (= they) run to a river because there is a preposition in the phrase in their garden. That means it cannot be the subject of the clause equivalent running right down to a river. Clearly, that is not what is intended. I don't know a grammatical reason that makes a clause equivalent impossible for sentence No. 2. There isn't a rule for everything, or if there is one for this, I don't know it. If we change the sentence a little, a clause equivalent is possible:

Harry, running alongside David, is his cousin.

This seems to be against the rule in your grammar book. I have never heard that rule, by the way. Your mother tongue may be a more logical one than English, with fewer exceptions. It is impossible to have rules that cover all usage of a language, especially the English language. You'll just have to learn English piecemeal and accept the oddities, there is no other way.

Bear in mind that you are learning a language whose speakers used a monetary system in which a pound was equal to 20 shillings and a shilling was equal to 12 pence. The same nation has built underground lines with curved tracks where station platforms are, creating gaps big enough for a child to fall down in them and necessitating announcements: Mind the gap!

And if you take a Piccadilly line tube to Heathrow Airport, you'll notice that the train floor isn't always flush with the station platform. It's sometimes two inches above it, sometimes two inches below.Smile [:)] As far as the English language is concerned, expect the unexpected.

Cheers
CB
Joined on Fri, Apr 7 2006
Senior Member 3,970
"I hope you'll all live to be 150 years old - and the last voice you hear is mine!" Frank Sinatra on stage in Oslo, Norway, 28 September 1991
Goodman  +  441908 Tue, 13 Nov 07 12:40 AM
 Gencebay90 wrote:

Hi

One of my grammar books -Grammar in Context- tells the following about reductions in non-defining relative clauses:

Shortened constructions impossible

1- They spend a lot of time in their garden, which runs right down to a river ( ''right down to a river'' is underlined'')

2- David, who is going fishing with Harry, is his nephew

What I want to learn is why these sentences above can't be shortenedAnd about the reduction in defining relative clauses it says that if the sentence contain verbs that describe mental state, it can't be shortened. This is okay but in non-defining relative clauses the book shortenes a sentence with mental state i.e ''know''. Here is the sentence's being non-defining or defining the only difference???

Here is the example

Harry, who know how disappointed David was, gave him a special bait

Thanks in advance

Smile [:)]

Harry,knowing how disappointed David was, gave him a special bait -It's fine

I have a little trouble though with "running down the river" as a participle clause to shorten the relative clause. It sounded like they spend a lot of time in his garden (acutally running down to the river). If you tried to described their garden which is situated by / alongside the river, consider this: They spend a lot of time [enjoying their riverside garden] or [garden by the river].

Joined on Mon, Nov 7 2005
Senior Member 3,816
The name says it all!
Gencebay90, 2 yr 9 days ago

Thank you both so much for your help

P.S: But some other opinons are still welcomed as well

Smile [:)]

Hoa Thai  +  442057 Tue, 13 Nov 07 09:55 AM
Hi Gencebay,

I can see the difficulties in trying to keep the construct of the sentences and shorten them. But if I have my way, I would offer a few alternative:

First one:
They spend a lot of time in their garden adjacent to a river.
They spend a lot of time in their garden overlooking a river.
They spend a lot of time in their garden landscaped straight to a river.

Second one:
Harry's nephew, David is going fishing with him.

Won't do?

Take care,
Hoa Thai



Joined on Mon, Oct 15 2007
Vietnam
Contributing Member 1,100
Best Regards - Hoa Thai
Gencebay90  +  442058 Tue, 13 Nov 07 09:56 AM

By the way this book - Grammar in Context- belongs to a native speaker, Hugh Gethin. You probabley know him but I wanted to remind

Smile [:)]

Gencebay90  +  442062 Tue, 13 Nov 07 10:01 AM

 Hoa Thai wrote:
Hi Gencebay,

I can see the difficulties in trying to keep the construct of the sentences and shorten them. But if I have my way, I would offer a few alternative:

First one:
They spend a lot of time in their garden adjacent to a river.
They spend a lot of time in their garden overlooking a river.
They spend a lot of time in their garden landscaped straight to a river.

Second one:
Harry's nephew, David is going fishing with him.

Won't do?

Take care,
Hoa Thai



Thank you very much Hoa Thai but what I want to learn in particular is why those sentences can't be shortened

Marius Hancu  +  442064 Tue, 13 Nov 07 10:04 AM
Harry, who knew how disappointed David was, gave him a special bait.

gave him a special bait
A bit strange, what do you mean?



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