I regretted that I hadn't been kinder to her while she had been

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Anonymous

#523683 Fri, 06 Jun 08 07:50 AM

I'd appreciate it if someone would answer my questions. Thanks in advance.

Concerning the sentence: I regretted that I hadn't been kinder to her while she had been still alive. (Sorry no context)

In the "that clause, Past Perfect is used both in the main clause and the subordinate clause.

What I want to ask is the following 2.

Where is the reference point, the time I regretted or the time she died?

I think "were still alive" is better than had been still alive. What do you think?

Anonymous

Clauses, Past perfect

Avangi

#523693 Fri, 06 Jun 08 08:28 AM

Unfortunately, we don't have a "past - past perfect." The reference point (from one point of view) is "regretted" - simple past. "Hadn't been kinder" is previous to that. The regretting seems to have followed her death, so the lack of kindness and the period during which it occurred were in the same time frame, which was prior to the regretting.

What was your justification for the subjunctive? (I'm not saying there isn't one.) I was thinking that if she were still alive, etc. ??

- A.

Avangi

Joined on Mon, Nov 19 2007

Senior Member (3,016)

". . . le plaisir delicieux et toujours nouveau d'une occupation inutile." - Henri de Regnier

Past perfect, Simple past, Subjunctives

Marius Hancu

#523701 Fri, 06 Jun 08 09:23 AM

I regretted that I hadn't been kinder to her while she had been still alive.

The sentence is perfect, IMO. While shows parallelism of time between

hadn't been kinder

had been alive

thus they must be kept in the same tense, the past perfect, to which you look back from the reference point of regretted.

Marius Hancu

Joined on Wed, Apr 26 2006

Montreal, Canada

Veteran Member (11,673)

Past perfect, Tenses

Anonymous

#523886 Fri, 06 Jun 08 06:33 PM

--Thank you Avangi. I see your idea.
The expression using Subjunctive would be like this; I wished I had been kinder to her while [when] she was still alive.

By the way, "were still alive" can be used instead of "had been still alive"?

Anonymous

Expressions, Subjunctives

Marius Hancu

#523890 Fri, 06 Jun 08 06:43 PM

>By the way, "were still alive" can be used instead of "had been still alive"?

No was/were would work in the original sentence. See above: the effect of while.

Marius Hancu

Anonymous

#524234 Sat, 07 Jun 08 06:01 PM

--Thank you Marius. I see very much.

Anonymous

Marius Hancu

#524401 Sun, 08 Jun 08 03:08 AM

Google books shows that both are used in books with about the same frequency:

792 on "had been * while she was"

http://books.google.com/books?q=%22had+been+*+while+she+was%22&btnG=Search+Books

615 on "had been * while she had been"

http://books.google.com/books?q=%22had+been+*+while+she+had+been%22&btnG=Search+Books

however, I still prefer the 2nd.

Marius Hancu

Avangi

#524418 Sun, 08 Jun 08 04:17 AM

Hi guys, I'm not sure I get the point. If the facts are that one thing happened in the simple past and two things both happened in the same time frame which was prior to that, why would we want to change those facts by altering the tenses out of respect to preference or frequency of use?

Re the subjunctive, "if" situations and "wish" situations are both typical uses which would call for "were." But many people prefer to avoid the subjunctive and use simple past.

- A.

Avangi

Simple past, Subjunctives, Tenses

Marius Hancu

#524468 Sun, 08 Jun 08 08:19 AM

Re:

I regretted that I hadn't been kinder to her while she had been still alive.

I regretted that I hadn't been kinder to her while she was still alive.

FYI, Swan, Practical English Usage, in its "tense simplification" section, mentions that the 2nd version is to be preferred (is "more natural") based on applying the tense simplification in the subordinate which follows while (past perfect -> past). It doesn't change my opinion, esp after I've seen the stats.

Marius Hancu

Past perfect, Tenses