seme  +  571153 Sun, 28 Sep 08 04:28 AM Not a theory :) The classic example is with scientific facts, things that are always true no matter what the time. So if the doctor says "Water freezes at 0 Degrees C" I report that as "He said water freezes at..." Although technically (and after a quick search I see that there are many good threads on this forum that go into detail on this) this is a difference between the way we are supposed to speak and the way we actually speak. The very very strict grammar is to always backshift, but in practice people don't do that and from time to time backshifting when the situation you are describing is still true can lead to confusion. That confusion usually disappears in the course of conversation because people don't just report random sentences they use reported speech in a story or explanation. There are some teachers (and students) who want to be very strict about grammar rules, and I respect that (even agree with it sometimes) but there are lots of times when the rules do not live up to everyday English. After all when I was in school we weren't supposed to split infinitives, yet because everyone does it all the time that's no longer taught as a grammar rule anymore. seme Joined on Sat, Sep 27 2008 New Member 20 Grammar, Conversations, Difference Between

	Yankee  +  571295 Sun, 28 Sep 08 05:00 PM Hi Seme I agree in general with what you're saying, but disagree with this: seme “The very very strict grammar is to always backshift” It seems to me that what you're calling "the very very strict grammar" is nothing more than "(overly) simplified grammar". Simplified rules (i.e. rules that work in a large number of situations, but not in all situations) may be helpful for beginners to use as building blocks.  Throwing too much information at a beginner -- especially all at once -- is likely only to confuse. As I see it, the trick is to ensure that learners understand from the very start that "simplified rules" are very general guidelines, and are never absolute or all-encompassing.  To me it is a mistake to refer to overly simplified grammar rules as "very strict grammar".  Doing so only reinforces the mistaken idea that any departure from the so-called "very strict rules" is automatically an error. . Yankee Joined on Sat, Apr 15 2006 Connecticut, USA Veteran Member 6,506 Amy "You can't depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus." - Mark Twain Grammar

	seme  +  571299 Sun, 28 Sep 08 05:13 PM hahah, yes, I agree with you completely on this :) But after two or three throw-down fights with other English teachers (and students @_@) over certain things I guess I've made concessions on certain topics. It's much easier to satisfy a student with "this is what we should use, but people break this rule all the time" then it is to try to convince them that everything they know is wrong XD XD XD Or worse that there may be no strict rules to guide them at all. English teaching, unfortunately, seems to attract the worst kind of pedants who want nothing more than to yell at you for violating the sacred rules of English and being corrupted by the dirty vernacular. It's so exhausting. Bravo to you for keeping your integrity :D seme