We have partnered with TradePub to bring you free industry magazines and resources - no coupons or credit cards required!
Visit: englishforums.tradepub.com
This question is Not Answered
|
|
|
|
|
|
Pter
+
467376
Tue, 22 Jan 08 12:15 PM
I have a question about the difference between "s" and "z". Hope you can help me. "s" is voiceless and "z" is voiced. However, I find it very difficult to distinguish them when they are at the end. In many cases, even when I play the sound files again and again, I still can't tell the difference between an "s" and a "z". Is it because of my ears or is there really not much difference? Or native speakers actually sense the difference from the length (and the subtle tone change) of the preceding vowel? I also found some websites saying that the "z" is often partially and completely devoiced. I really can't make sense of this. What is the difference between a devoiced "z" and an "s"?
Joined on
Wed, Nov 28 2007
Regular Member
553
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Zerox
+
467429
Tue, 22 Jan 08 02:55 PM
Normally when /z/ is intervocalic, that is, between two vowels, it is fully voiced, otherwise partly or fully devoiced. Say, for example, 'vases' and you can feel the vocal cord vibration with the first /z/. The second /z/ in the word is devoiced but it still has friction noise. There are mainly two things how to separate between an unvoiced fortis sibilant /s/ and devoiced lenis sibilant /Z/ ( Notice, here I use a capital 'z' to indicate that it is devoiced). First, /s/ is louder than /Z/, it requires greater breath force and muscular effort. Second, the vowel preceding fortis is a bit shorter than before a lenis sound. Hopefully this helped you in some way.
Joined on
Wed, May 10 2006
Full Member
295
-It is rational that the irrational contradicts with the rational-
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Pter
+
467728
Wed, 23 Jan 08 03:18 AM
Thanks Zerox. Just want to check if I understood it correctly. Are they devoiced /z/? 1. absorbs, clouds, bags, levels, dims, unions, cheers, evolves
However, if the final "s" follow a vowel, I found from the dictionary that sometimes it is /z/ and sometimes it is /s/. These are indicated as /z/ in the dictionary: 2. grandpas, has (strong form), says, pies, fixes, togas, Achilles, hers
But these are indicated as /s/ in the dictionary 3. class, gas, assess, analysis, happiness
I really can't figure out a rule when is an "s" /z/ and when is it /s/ when following a vowel. I am completely amazed by the following pairs: close adj. /s/
close v /z/
abuse n /s/
abuse v /z/
diffuse adj /s/
diffuse v /z/
excuse n /s/
excuse v /z/
How important is the difference in the pronunciation of all these ending voiced /z/, devoice /z/ and /s/. Can people really notice the difference? Pronouncing /z/ is quite natural to me when it is between two vowels, but I find it very difficult to pronounce a voiced /z/ at word finals. It I pronounce all of them as /s/, would you find it strange?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
CalifJim
+
467745
Wed, 23 Jan 08 04:09 AM
| Is it because of my ears or is there really not much difference? |
|
Your ears.
| How important is the difference in the pronunciation of all
these ending voiced /z/, devoice /z/ and /s/. |
|
It's very
important. Well, the difference between /s/ and /z/,
anyway. Maybe the devoiced /z/ is not so important.
Practice with /z/ and imitate native speakers, and you'll automatically
produce the correct forms.
| Can people really notice the difference? |
|
Yes.
Native speakers have no trouble hearing the difference between the verb
and noun pronunciations of use, for example.
| I[ f ] I pronounce all of them as /s/, would you find it strange? |
|
Yes. That would be strange.
Maybe you just need to practice a little more. Eventually you'll get it. ![Smile [:)]](/emoticons/emotion-1.gif)
CJ
Joined on
Mon, Aug 2 2004
California
Veteran Member
22,454
"There are no facts, only interpretations" - Nietzsche
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Pter
+
467749
Wed, 23 Jan 08 04:38 AM
Thank you very much CJ. However, I still can't quite figure out how to pronounce the devoiced /z/. Is it more like /s/ or the voiced /z/?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Zerox
+
467794
Wed, 23 Jan 08 08:36 AM
I haven't come across with a clear rule that states when to use fortis
or lenis sound after a vowel, perhaps CJ has more information on this
matter.
However, there is a simple rule for the following suffixal consonant, that is , for those 's'-markers such as cloud s. Simply put, the rule is fortis+fortis and lenis+lenis. So, the word 'cloud' ends in a lenis sound, hence a lenis sound follows, that is, /z/. Moreover, although /nml/ don't have the normal fortis/lenis pairs, they are considered voiced sounds. Therefore, they are followed by a voiced lenis sound, as in levels. However, notice the exception with sibilants. With these the ending is /iz/, for example 'buses, kisses, bushes'. Perhaps you can hear the difference between /s/ and /z/ if you say them yourself. Try saying cats(ends in a fortis /t/) and dogs(ends in a lenis /g/) one after the other. Notice also that final /z/ in 'dogs, robs, kills' is extemely weak and barely audible. If you have trouble making the distinction, make only the sibilant sounds /s/ and /z/. Be sure that your tongue is in the right place. Then start making /s/ and move to /z/. Your tongue doesn't move at all when you make the shift, only your vocal cords start to vibrate with the /z/. Hopefully this was of any help.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Carson21
+
467840
Wed, 23 Jan 08 10:25 AM
I don't know what you guys are all on about with devoiced /z/. It's not a devoiced /z/, it's just /s/. In the example that someone above used, "vases"... I don't know about up North or across the pond (either one), but American Standard has that as /s/ in the medial and /z/ in the final. Well, if you pronounce the <a> like you do in "bratwurst" or "father", then the medial would become /z/.
Pter, the basic rule is this: final <s> becomes voiced to /z/ when it is final in most verbs and/or after a voiced stop (/g b d/ etc). It remains unvoiced /s/ for most nouns and adjectives. It also can voice when the closest (previous) consonant was already /s/. (Abuses, vases, faces, places)
Here's the other basic rule that will probably help you, even if at first it seems to be "maddening the unhelpful": In English, there are a million rules, and every rule has a million exceptions. English is probably as far removed from a loglang as you can get, so it helps to just accept what you learn at face value and imitate it, rather than trying to figure out "why". You can ask "why" all day and use up all the time where you could have been moving on to the next rule. Look at the general rule for each case, then apply it. You learn irregularities as you go (much like learning Spanish verbs).
The perfect example of an exception: assess. It has /s/ in the medial AND final. D'oh! Just have to remember that one.
As for how important it is that you learn the difference between /s/ and /z/... I don't think it's that big a deal. If the spelling shows <s>, then saying /s/ or /z/ won't make much of a difference if your goal is to just be understood. They're allophones, essentially. We could drop <z> from our orthography and get along just fine. However, if your goal is to sound like a native speaker, then, yes, it's quite important that you can make the distinction.
Last, if you pronounced all <s> as /s/... You might sound strange to most people in the UK and the northern United States (plus the commonwealth), but anywhere in the West, Southwest, South East, and Border states in the US, no one would think twice about it! There are a lot of people in those regions that speak English as a second language with Spanish as their first, and they tend to always use /s/ for <s> , regardless of typical conventions.
Joined on
Wed, Jan 23 2008
U.S.A.
New Member
15
English doesn't "borrow" from other languages; it follows them dark alleys, beats them unconscious, then rummages through their pockets looking for loose grammar.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Zerox
+
467857
Wed, 23 Jan 08 11:06 AM
Yes, I should have checked with which pronunciaion you speak. My examples concern mainly BrE.
|
|
|
|
|
Anonymous,
1 yr 307 days ago
Without going into the technical stuff here's my tip for making an S or a Z.
S - imagine your bicycle tire has got a small hole in it. What is the sound of the air leaking out. A hissssssssss....
Z - a wasp/bee is getting angy around you. What noise is it making? Buzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..........
|