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He said that the train had left before he arrived at the station.

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Anonymous  #494078  Fri, 28 Mar 08 04:50 PM

I'd be happy if someone would answer my question. Thanks in advance.

Do the following 3 sentences all express the same situation?

A:  He said that the train had left before he arrived at the station.

B:  He said that the train had left before he had arrived at the station.

C:  He said that the train left before he arrived at the station.


When you change the sentence: "He says that the train had left before he arrived at the station." using "He said" instead of "He says", which is the possible result, A, B or C, or all three? 

  
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Grammar Geek  #494086  Fri, 28 Mar 08 05:14 PM

We use things like past perfect to make it clear what happened before something else. When you have a very clear marker like the word "before" the use of the past perfect isn't as important.

A is fine and traditional.

B. This is fine too because it's reported speech, which pushes thing back a step in the tense sequence, so the "arrived" can become "had arrived."

C is also fine. It's clear the train left, and then he arrived, in that order, both in the past.

What would not be okay is to say that the train left before he had arrived. Although it's still clear what is meant, you don't use the past perfect for the more recent action and the simple past for the earlier action.

There's no difference between "he said" and "he says" regarding the rest of the sentence. The only difference is that you probably have the person on the phone relaying what he is saying when you say "he says" (or you're translating for someone who doesn't understand). With "he said" it can be just as immediate, or it could have been six months ago.

 

  
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Goodman  #494094  Fri, 28 Mar 08 05:35 PM

Hi Anon,

We are not particularly interested in finding if someone is happy with our answers.  So “I‘d be happy if…” does sound aweful to my ears. I had made this comment before and I am not sure you were the same poster. But I would make another attempt to make this point. If you want to be polite, Just say something like“ I will appreciate anyone’s help on  my questions” or something in that effect.

Here are my comments relating to your questions.

Mainly, all 3 bear the same core meaning without the nitty gritty on tense and indirectness.

It would be correct If the sentence was “ The train had left the staion before he arrived at…”.

All 3 are correct in the sense that they are grammatical, but B, with a double past perfect construction is unneccesary. It’s good enough to say “He said that the train had left before he had arrived at the station”, or use simple use simple past tense.

I'd be happy if someone would answer my question- not a good phrase to use! IMO.(:() Sad

 

  
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Kooyeen  #494110  Fri, 28 Mar 08 07:10 PM
Hi,
I don't like B. Two past perfects don't sound good to me, I wonder why. I'd get rid of one, and which one I'd get rid of would depend on what I wanted to emphasize. Or I'd get rid of both (and you get your C).

"I'd be happy if" doesn't seem bad to me, but I would use "glad" --> I'd be glad if...
Again, I don't know why. My strange instinct, lol. Smile
  
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Goodman  #494150  Fri, 28 Mar 08 10:10 PM

Perhaps it is a cultural thing.  We have been taught in early age when asking for favors or help from others, we should show our gratitude and appreciation by being humble. So to our ears, “I’d be happy…” projects a tone that centers around his being happy, rather than appreciating the help.   I made the comments for that reason. If we don’t share the same culture, I respect that too! (:)) Smile

  
Anonymous  #494247  Sat, 29 Mar 08 05:00 AM

Thank you for your advice. Frm now on I'd use "I'd appreciate it if ---"

  
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