Sentence analysis

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CalifJim

#76185 Thu, 24 Feb 05 02:34 AM

As the behaviorist said, "It was good for you. Was it good for me?" Smile [:)]

CalifJim

Joined on Mon, Aug 2 2004

California

Veteran Member (17,792)

"There are no facts, only interpretations" - Nietzsche

CalifJim

#76188 Thu, 24 Feb 05 02:48 AM

I guess I was trying to focus on cases where the "past participle" is very adjectival in nature and therefore a "by"-phrase is out of place or changes the meaning.

Add "by Max" to these, for example.

We were interested.
Amy was divorced.
The problem is complicated.
The room was crowded.
She was worried.
The two facts were clearly connected.

Here's an interesting one: She was unimpressed. (Max unimpressed her?)

CJ

CalifJim

Mister Micawber

#76196 Thu, 24 Feb 05 04:25 AM

Part of the key to the cloudiness may indeed be '-ed verb as adjective as -ed verb'. The sample sentences you just gave, Jim, to me offer a range of credibilities. But should we anyway (in this thread I mean) be looking at simple statements with no possible/probable agent, or comparing the naturalness of active vs passive with agent ?

Amy was divorced by Max-- is fine, and of course the meaning is changed from her state to the event; but that doesn't make the passive any less natural. Isn't that what we're discussing?

Again, I still fail to see why Max cannot quite naturally delight us-- with his antics, his charm, his joie de vivre, his BMW; that is, why we cannot be delighted by Max for all of those reasons. Or are we just talking about isolated sentences again, like 'He had walked in the park that morning'? 'I was delighted by Max' obviously needs some (gasp!) context, but other than that, I not only can live with it, but also could snuggle right up to that Beamer.

Am I not fully awake yet?

Paco, I would say:

'John impressed the girls by his friendly approach.' [instrumental?]
'The girls were impressed by his friendly approach.' [agentive]

But it's strange-- how do we activate them?--

'His friendly approach impressed the girls.' (the second one's easy)

But the first one--

'The girls were impressed by-- John's friendly approach? John and his friendly approach?' Casi?

Mister Micawber

Joined on Wed, Aug 4 2004

Yokohama

Veteran Member (22,690)

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master-- that's all.'

Verbs, Sample

MrPedantic

#76230 Thu, 24 Feb 05 07:59 AM

'Changes the meaning' – I find the 'flip' happens at the very moment of attaching the by-clause, CJ:

1. Amy was divorced [Was she, indeed. But married again now?] by Max [Oh! Hasty reread...]
i.e. state > action

2. The problem is complicated [I should say so. How am I ever going to get to the bottom of this one – ] by Max [What? Not him again! I might have guessed.]
i.e. this time, it changes into a different problem: e.g. mathematical > human. (Max muscling in on Amy?)

3. She was worried [as she had every right to be, considering the – ] by Max [What a downright cad that fellow is.]
i.e. as #1; with the additional complication that she (Amy?) appears to have turned into a bone. Also there's a strong pull towards 'about Max'.

4. The two facts were clearly connected...by Max [Typical. Who else...]
Here we have two flips: state > action, and also a flip on 'clearly': from 'as is obvious to the speaker' to 'as Max made clear'.

5. She was unimpressed...?
Is 'not impressed' the negative of the verb, and 'unimpressed' the contrary of the adjective?

I think the same applies in the other cases – 'not' lends itself to a 'by clause' (verbal), but 'un-' won't work (i.e. the pre-by word is a simple adjective - ?'to unworry').

Is this a test for 'statement with verb in passive' vs 'to be + adjective', I wonder?

MrP

MrPedantic

Joined on Tue, Oct 12 2004

Veteran Member (12,168)

...opella forensis / adducit febris...

Verbs, Clauses, Negatives

MrPedantic

#76231 Thu, 24 Feb 05 08:06 AM

Again, I still fail to see why Max cannot quite naturally delight us-- with his antics, his charm, his joie de vivre, his BMW...

If you felt the same way about Amy as I do, MrM...

But I think the clue is in your 'with': that seems the natural continuation of 'delight', in that sense.

I find the same with 'unimpressed' – I want to say 'unimpressed with Max'/'not impressed by Max' (or is that just BrE?).

MrP

MrPedantic

Casi

#76238 Thu, 24 Feb 05 09:40 AM

CJ wrote:
"The cake was eaten by Max" is odd, you say.

That's correct. It's a textbook case of passive gone wrong (i.e., simple structures used to demonstrate how to structure passive voice. They're commonly used, which is why "the cake was eaten by Max" doesn't sound all that odd.) Rule of thumb: use active voice if the agent is known. There are exceptions, though, notably agentive adverbials.

Casi

Joined on Sat, Sep 25 2004

Regular Member (547)

Casi

#76239 Thu, 24 Feb 05 09:42 AM

Here's an interesting one: She was unimpressed. (Max unimpressed her?)
CJ

That's cool. Got more?

She wasn't impressed (verb)
She was unimpressed (adjective)

Casi

Verbs

Hela

#76240 Thu, 24 Feb 05 09:45 AM

Dear Mr Pedantic,

So you would rather say (in BrE) :

"The girls were impressed with Max's friendly approach."

rather than:

"The girls were impressed by his friendly approach." ?

Kind regards,
Hela

Hela

Joined on Mon, Nov 15 2004

Tunisia

Regular Member (831)

Regards

Casi

#76241 Thu, 24 Feb 05 09:48 AM

Gee, I should put all these posts together. (I will next time.)

I find the same with 'unimpressed' – I want to say 'unimpressed with Max'/'not impressed by Max' (or is that just BrE?).

MrP

That's cool, too. I believe it has to do with the participle's verbal status.

be unimpressed with (participle structure: verb phrase + prep. object)
be not impressed by (passive structure: verb phrase, adjunctive agent)

Thematic roles may be playing a part here; e.g, impressed by Max versus delighted by the news.

Casi

Verbs

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