Sentence structure question.

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darkneon

#41614 Wed, 11 Aug 04 02:18 AM

Good!

It got me startled for a minute :S , but if we can agree that a DP can introduce an independent clause and a RP can introduce an dependent clause, let end the discussion about the 'that' pronoun here (a nevertheless enlighting discussion).

I still have some other questions about structure sentence however.

Consider the following sentences from my book.

1. Canadians are people who will travel to the United States to buy cheap cigarettes, then return home for cancer treatement paid by Canadian taxpayers.

Q. Should not there be an 'and' right before the 'then'? I mean we have two independent clauses, and a comma is too weak to join them.

However, I have seen many where there is no 'and', so I am wondering if both structrures (with and without 'and') are grammatically correct?

2. Then we sat up drinking coffee until three o'clock, gossiping about our friends.

Q. What is gossiping about our friends? It has no subject (unless 'gossiping' fulfill this function) nor verb, so it cannot be a clause. I do not understand the use of the comma to join this part.

Thanks again

darkneon

Joined on Sun, Aug 8 2004

New Member (12)

Verbs, Clauses, Nouns, Pronouns, Commas

Mister Micawber

#41660 Wed, 11 Aug 04 08:06 AM

Good, I'm tired of that and that too.

Commas! Ah, wonderful tools are they-- much more than other punctuation marks, they are free to do their job of making the written word clear.

As far as I am concerned, we need neither an 'and' nor a comma before (1) 'then' or (2) 'gossiping', because the clauses are short enough for the relationships to show clearly without any help from conjunctions or punctuation.

Commas are certainly not too weak to join independent clauses. Observe this series:

I sing and my brother dances.
I sing very well, and my brother does too.
I sing, he dances: what a team!
First I sing, then he dances.
We stayed up all night dancing.
We stayed up all night dancing, singing and drinking.
We stayed up all night dancing with the girls, singing at the piano, and drinking cheap beer, and I finally got home at 4 a.m.
We stayed up, they kept dancing, and John went home early.

There are many permutations.

Mister Micawber

Joined on Wed, Aug 4 2004

Yokohama

Veteran Member (21,325)

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master-- that's all.'

Clauses, Commas, Punctuation

darkneon

#41738 Wed, 11 Aug 04 05:33 PM

Hi

Would you say this sentence is correct?
'This film is boring, it has no plot'

Commas are certainly not too weak to join independent clauses.

That is a comma splice, no?

darkneon

Clauses, Commas

Mister Micawber

#41825 Thu, 12 Aug 04 05:33 AM

Yes, I think that's the designation.

Purists would require a semicolon but its brevity recommends the comma to me.

Mister Micawber

Colons, Commas, Semicolons

darkneon

#41992 Fri, 13 Aug 04 04:55 AM

I see. I will discuss this with my next teacher before handing in my papers.

Furthermore, I have run into a problem when learning to combine sentences.

Consider the following three independent clauses.
- The movie was terrible.
- Our car broke down.
- We had a good time anyway.

Lets say I want to use coordinating conjuctions to combine them. Following the purists' rule that a comma is needed before the conjonction, I came up with this:

The movie was terrible, and our car broke down, but we had a good time anyway.

Is this grammatically correct?
If I go by the sound, it appears to me that the comma before and is not necessary.
Could both possibilities be grammatically correct?

I would like to have your insight on this.

darkneon

Clauses, Commas

Mister Micawber

#41996 Fri, 13 Aug 04 06:16 AM

An excellent example for discussion, DK.

I agree absolutely that both versions are correct-- and necessary in the language. Here is a case where the optional comma can serve to clarify a subtle meaning the writer wishes to convey:

If s/he wishes to stress the series of events-- first the movie was terrible, and then next the car broke down, but in the end we had a good time anyway-- the comma is appropriate: 'The movie was terrible, and our car broke down, but we had a good time anyway.'

On the other hand, if the writer wishes to emphasize the totality of misadventure in spite of which a good time was had, then 'The movie was terrible and our car broke down, but we had a good time anyway.' would be more appropriate.

It is of course case-by-case; if the individual clauses become longer or more convoluted, the comma will approach necessity.

And I think the wisest thing you can do, as you said, is discuss punctuation with your teacher: it is s/he who grades your papers, and s/he may have very strong personal ideas on punctuation too.