Sentence structure question.

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darkneon

#41288 Sun, 08 Aug 04 11:26 AM

Hello everyone,

I am new here, so let me introduce myself a little first.

I am currently trying to get better in english writting (my third language), for two main reasons.

2. My english teachers told during the past years my writting is poor.
1. The lastest made me realize the importance of good writting skills.

Rignt now, I am studying from "The Bare Essentials+" book [moderators censor that if you consider it advertisement], and since it is confusing at times, I will stick with you for the next few weeks.

Here is my question on a 'run-on' sentence.

Consider the following sentence:
- Press on the wound that will stop the bleeding.

The (one possible) answer from the book is "Press on the wound. That will stop the bleeding"

The answer confuses me because earlier in the book it stated that a sentence beginning with 'that' is a dependent clause. This kind of clause cannot stand alone, but in the example above it does?!

By observation, here is what I came up with.
'that' + subject + verb = dependent clause
'that' + verb = independent clause (which is why the answer is correct)

I would like someone to confirm this, or correct it.

Furthermore, would one possible answer to the following sentence fragment
"Shopping on the Internet is convenient and, but there are a few disadvantages. That cause me to shop "offline". From time to time"
can be
"Shopping on the Internet is convenient and, but there are a few disadvantages, that cause me to shop "offline" from time to time".
Right?

Thanks in advance.

darkneon

Joined on Sun, Aug 8 2004

New Member (12)

Verbs, Clauses, Sentence Structures

anon1

#41365 Mon, 09 Aug 04 07:32 AM

The answer confuses me because earlier in the book it stated that a sentence beginning with 'that' is a dependent clause. This kind of clause cannot stand alone, but in the example above it does?!

I encourage you to review a discussion about "it and that" by looking at this thread here. Pay particular attention to CalifJim's answer. He does an excellent job at describing "that."

"That" is a very flexible word. It can be used as a noun, adjective, adverb, and a conjuction.

1) I am confident that interest rates will rise.

"that interest rates will rise" is not an independent clause.

2) That is very expensive.

I might be pointing to a piece of jewelry and saying, "That is very expensive." Independent clause.

Furthermore, would one possible answer to the following sentence fragment
"Shopping on the Internet is convenient and, but there are a few disadvantages. That cause me to shop "offline". From time to time"
can be
"Shopping on the Internet is convenient and, but there are a few disadvantages, that cause me to shop "offline" from time to time".

Neither is correct. Your "and, but" are incorrect.

Shopping on the Internet is convenient, but there are a few disadvantages that cause me to shop offline from time to time.

Or you could write that as....

Shopping on the Internet is convenient; however, there are a few disadvantages that cause me to shop offline from time to time.

Or you could write it in one of several other alternate ways.

Both "and" and "but" are coordinating conjunctions. I can't think of when you would have two coordinating conjunctions used one after the other. Here, I chose "but" because you are contrasting two ideas.

Hope this message helps.

anon1

Joined on Fri, Jul 2 2004

Senior Member (2,049)

Verbs, Clauses, Nouns, Adverbs, Sentence Structures

Mister Micawber

#41366 Mon, 09 Aug 04 07:36 AM

Hi DK,

Welcome to englishforums.

"Press on the wound. That will stop the bleeding". The 'that' is not a relative pronoun for a dependent clause. It is a different word (with a different pronounciation); it is the demonstrative pronoun for 'pressing on the wound'.

I have not pursued all possibilities generated by your discovered rule, but I would suggest that it may be better, or at least more widely-understood, to consider them homographs (different words with the same spelling).

Regarding your Internet shopping sentence, the 'and, but' makes even your corrected version unintelligible, and there is one too many commas, because the 'that' initiates a restrictive clause. 'Offline' need not be set off by quotation marks. If I may correct it:

"Shopping on the Internet is convenient, but there are a few disadvantages that cause me to shop offline from time to time".

Mister Micawber

Joined on Wed, Aug 4 2004

Yokohama

Veteran Member (22,702)

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master-- that's all.'

Clauses, Nouns, Pronouns, Commas, Relative Pronouns, Spelling, Quotation Marks, Homographs

darkneon

#41387 Mon, 09 Aug 04 11:42 AM

Hi guys and thanks for the replies.

First, I must point out that there was a mistake within the "Shopping on the Internet" sentence. It should have been "Shopping on the Internet is convenient and [efficient], but there are a few disadvantages that cause me to shop offline from time to time."

Thank you MountainHiker for the link, which was very informative but did not make my confusion go away. I am confused whether a clause containing "that" is independent or not?

So far, and based on what you two have written, it seems "that" is independent when it represents the subject and it is not otherwise?

Also, if you change "Press" to "Pressing" then "Pressing on the wound. That will stop the bleeding" would be incorrect because "Pressing on the wound" is dependent? Moreover, "Pressing on the wound, that will stop the bleeding" would be a correct solution?

Am I right?

Thanks
Bye

darkneon

Clauses

Mister Micawber

#41406 Mon, 09 Aug 04 02:06 PM

Hello again, Neon.

Regarding these two words, please listen again:

Some dependent clauses begin with 'that', the restrictive relative pronoun. (Other dependent clauses begin with 'which', a restrictive and non-restrictive pronoun.)

However, 'that' as a demonstrative pronoun or demonstrative adjective is a different word; it is not related in usage, pronunciation, or meaning to the relative pronoun. It can indeed be used in independent clauses: 'I'm hungry, and that is why I am eating this hamburger'. It can also appear in dependent clauses: I've heard that's your third hamburger today.'

Both can appear in the same sentence: 'I've heard that that is your third hamburger today.' They are two different words with two different functions.

It is much more realistic to understand the two 'that's as different words, than to try to build structural 'rules' to govern their usage.

Regarding 'press/pressing', my original suggestion is what you should follow. I stated that the demonstrative pronoun 'that' represents 'pressing on the wound', which phrase does not appear in the lead sentence. If you wish to extend the demonstrative pronoun:

'Press on the wound. Pressing on the wound will stop the bleeding' is the correct solution.

And that's that.

Mister Micawber

Clauses, Nouns, Pronouns, Relative Pronouns, Demonstrative Adjectives, Pronunciation

darkneon

#41515 Tue, 10 Aug 04 02:52 PM

Thanks Mister Micawber for replying again.

I will do some research on the restrictive relative pronoun and the demonstrative pronoun. Only after, I will muse on all this.

Just a quick question, how do you recognize that the clause that's your third hamburger today is dependent where 'that' is used as a demonstrative pronoun? I do not see on what you base on?

Good bye

darkneon

Clauses, Nouns, Pronouns, Relative Pronouns

Mister Micawber

#41518 Tue, 10 Aug 04 03:05 PM

There are two that's in a row, and one of them (although elided in one example and present in the other) must be the relative pronoun, thus creating a restrictive dependent clause... and the demonstrative that is within that clause.

Mister Micawber

Clauses, Nouns, Pronouns, Relative Pronouns

darkneon

#41546 Tue, 10 Aug 04 06:34 PM

I did not know the relative 'that' was omitted in the first example. In fact, I thought there where two different sentences.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that the omitted relative that in 'I've heard that's your third hamburger today.' made the second clause dependent?

Now, if this is correct then the demonstrative that did not create the dependent clause.

Again, if the above is correct, can you think of a dependant clause created by a demonstrative that (and where there is no omitted relative that or any other word(s) that make a clause dependent)?

I am waiting for your answer.

darkneon

Clauses

Mister Micawber

#41604 Wed, 11 Aug 04 12:58 AM

Nope, I didn't say the DP created the clause, it just appears in it. Demonstratives do not create (or, more properly 'introduce'), dependent clauses, RPs do-- that's the point of this discussion.

Incidentally, the RP 'that' is also considered a complementizer by some.

Mister Micawber

Clauses

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