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Why is "Can you show me the way how you did it?" incorrect?

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Hoa Thai  #432874  Sun, 21 Oct 07 02:23 AM
 Yankee wrote:
 Anonymous wrote:

"He's the man whom I saw at the mall" is better, isn't it?
Hi Anon

No, I would not say that is "better".  Your sentence might be "technically" correct, but the use of the word "whom" is dying and many grammarians are now accepting who in place of whom in many contexts.  The most natural version of that sentence would be either with no relative pronoun at all or with the pronoun who.


Dear Yankee,

Did you mean whom will become archaic and in all situations it will be replaced with who? For instance. would native English spearkers prefer to do away with with whom, from whom, etc...  too?

I have a nephew who took a college English test and he lost a mark for choosing who over whom. He got accepted in the school any way, but I should advise him to show his English teacher this thread.

Have a nice day,
Hoa Thai



  
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Yankee  #432877  Sun, 21 Oct 07 02:32 AM
Hi Hoa Thai

The use of whom is still common when it is directly preceded by a preposition.  Otherwise, the use of whom can sound overly formal.
Sentences such as the following are accepted:

Who did you see at the party?
Who did you speak with?

Does that answer your question?
  
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Hoa Thai  #432881  Sun, 21 Oct 07 02:51 AM
 Yankee wrote:
Hi Hoa Thai

The use of whom is still common when it is directly preceded by a preposition.  Otherwise, the use of whom can sound overly formal.
Sentences such as the following are accepted:

Who did you see at the party?
Who did you speak with?

Does that answer your question?


Hi Yankee,

So whom can no longer be alone and must be preceeded by a preposition - (interesting!)
Therefore, a statement like "Do you know Bob, whom Diane rode with?" would be considered unnatural ?

Hoa Thai
P.S. I posted the same question w/o signing in earlier. Please pardon me.

  
Yankee  #432889  Sun, 21 Oct 07 03:11 AM
Hi Hoa Thai

As I worded it before, the use of whom will often be perceived as "overly formal" -- or perhaps even stilted.  So, in that respect, yes, whom often sounds unnatural. 

"Do you know Bob, whom Diane rode with?" ==> This sentence is quite awkward.  A more natural wording would be this:
"Do you know Bob, the man Diane rode with?"


Although it is grammatically correct, people would generally not use a sentence such as this (at least not with a straight face): Wink [;)]
Do you know Bob, the man with whom Diane rode?

  
Yoong Liat  #433033  Sun, 21 Oct 07 02:27 PM
Hi Hoa Thai

I have a nephew who took a college English test and he lost a mark for choosing who over whom. He got accepted in the school any way, but I should advise him to show his English teacher this thread.

In Singapore, students are taught to use 'whom'.  For example, "The man whom you spoke to this morning is my father."  Using 'who' would be considered wrong. In an exam, it is advisable to use 'whom'. ( Singaporeans are using British English.)

  
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Tanit  #433038  Sun, 21 Oct 07 02:57 PM
 Yoong Liat wrote:


In Singapore, students are taught to use 'whom'.  For example, "The man whom you spoke to this morning is my father."  Using 'who' would be considered wrong. In an exam, it is advisable to use 'whom'. ( Singaporeans are using British English.)



To me, generalisation can be dangerous. In Cambridge ESOL exams (such as FCE, CAE, CPE ... British exams!) students are required to write two compositions. One of them can be an informal letter (for instance, to a friend or to a relative). In these compositions, something like "The man whom you spoke to this morning is my father" would be considered inappropriate in terms of register and consistency, while something like "The man who you spoke to this morning is my father" would be considered inappropriate in other contexts (for instance, formal letters or reports).
So, I'd say it depends on your target reader, not on BrE or on exams.


  
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Cool Breeze  #433058  Sun, 21 Oct 07 04:01 PM
 Tanit wrote:
In these compositions, something like "The man whom you spoke to this morning is my father" would be considered inappropriate in terms of register and consistency, while something like "The man who you spoke to this morning is my father" would be considered inappropriate in other contexts (for instance, formal letters or reports).
So, I'd say it depends on your target reader, not on BrE or on exams.

Hi Tanit

In my opinion it depends in a large measure on the marker's attitude, broadness or narrowness of mind, experience in using English, exposure to the many varieties of the language and  -  quite often  -  nothing rational. For you, and anyone who is interested, this is what the Random House Unabridged Dictionary says about who and whom:

Usage. The typical usage guide statement about the choice between WHO and WHOM says that the choice must be determined by the grammar of the clause within which this pronoun occurs. WHO is the appropriate form for the subject of a sentence or clause: Who are you? The voters who elected him have not been disappointed. WHOM is the objective form: Whom did you ask? To whom are we obliged for this assistance? This method of selecting the appropriate form is generally characteristic of formal writing and is usually followed in edited prose.
In most speech and writing, however, since WHO or WHOM often occurs at the beginning of the sentence or clause, there is a strong tendency to choose WHO no matter what its function. Even in edited prose, WHO occurs at least ten times as often as WHOM, regardless of grammatical function. Only when it directly follows a preposition is WHOM more likely to occur than WHO: Mr. Erickson is the man to whom you should address your request.
In natural informal speech, WHOM is quite rare. Who were you speaking to? is far more likely to occur than the “correct” To whom were you speaking? or Whom were you speaking to? However, the notion that WHOM is somehow more “correct” or elegant than WHO leads some speakers to hypercorrect uses of WHOM: Whom are you? The person whom is in charge has left the office.

I find their opinion very sensible, but I also have a broad enough mind not to  object vehemently to those who think differerently. I favour a lenient line with regard to what is correct, natural and acceptable. What is natural to some may be unnatural to others.

If you are interested in correctness, you may want to read another thread that deals with it.

Cheers
CB
  
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Tanit  #433060  Sun, 21 Oct 07 04:10 PM
Thanks, CB.

I am obviously interested in reading anything which does not simplify things by saying only "This is right and this is wrong", especially when this supposed correctness is contradicted by common usage Smile [:)]

I would have liked to go on reading the thread you mentioned, but the link leads to a post which doesn't exist anymore.

  
Yoong Liat  #433071  Sun, 21 Oct 07 04:26 PM
Hi CB

I find what you've written very logical.


  
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