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stars in the sky or on the sky?

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Bartholomew Esquire  #521464  Sun, 01 Jun 08 01:57 AM
"The stars sure look lovely tonight".
  
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MrPedantic  #521468  Sun, 01 Jun 08 02:01 AM
I've seen better.

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CalifJim  #521556  Sun, 01 Jun 08 07:30 AM
 It's overcast here.  Are you sure there are stars up there?
  
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Osee  #521640  Sun, 01 Jun 08 01:52 PM

I am feeling the atmosphere here is not right now. If my sense is right, I am sorry initializing this.

Anyway, I think I have got the answer: the common is in the sky, being aware about through the sky occurring in some science articles or books.

Thanks a lot.

  
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Pter  #521713  Sun, 01 Jun 08 04:46 PM
Bartholomew Esquire
I don't know why you're just shoving a popularity contest onto me.
Sorry, Bartholomew.  I didn't mean to shove a popularity contest onto you.  I absolutely have no such intention.  I was just trying to quote how other astronomers use the word.

Bartholomew Esquire
Except we CAN trace the boundary of "the upper atmosphere of the Earth". Just because most humans use that whole simplified complex using words like "a few, many, a lot" &c, does not mean that this is the correct method for a more technical setting.
I agree with you that there is a boundary between the upper atmosphere of the Earth and outer space.  I think you are talking about the Kármán line, located at an altitude of 100 km.  Methods of propulsion are different above and below the line.  Aeronautics only applies below the line within the atmosphere and that is about how planes fly.  Study on how to propel objects (e.g. rockets) to fly above that height is called Astronautics.

However, as you have mentioned, it applies to the "atmosphere", not the "sky".  The definition is useful for engineering purposes.  A technical definition for such a setting is not applicable to astronomy.  The astronomers often talk about the sky just like it is a canvas with all sorts of objects in it.  The language of the astronomers is necessarily different from that of the engineers specializing in Aeronautics/Astronautics.  You can't say which one is correct.  They are just meaningful within their own area of study.  For day-to-day English, I would certainly use "in the sky".  "On the sky" would be better in certain contexts.

Bartholomew Esquire
The dictionaries nowadays are what define the words, so this simplified pretty idea of "It's what I see when I look up" just doesn't cut it when you're talking about things that lay beyond the Earth's atmosphere.
The dictionaries have multiple entries for a single word.  What you mentioned is just one entry from one particular dictionary.

Cambridge and Longman define "sky" as

    the area above the Earth, in which clouds, the sun, etc. can be seen.

The American Heritage has the following it the third entry of "sky":

    The celestial regions; the heavens: stars in the southern sky.

I am quite certain the biggest dictionary OED would certainly have an entry with similar meaning, but I do not have that with me right now.

Bartholomew Esquire
I'll get some sources in a few days, maybe contact someone. IN that mean time, I'm not going to argue about, since we'll have a somewhat definite conclusion in a few days.
No problem.  I am more than happy to read about different view points.

It is not a problem to disagree as long as we focus on the subject itself and can support our own views with logical arguments.  That's the whole point for a discussion forum like this, isn't it? 

  
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Pter  #521717  Sun, 01 Jun 08 04:57 PM
MrPedantic
(And to judge by your avatar, Pter, you have a more direct experience of these things than most of us.)
What an interesting remark on my avatar!

That is a pteranodon and it was how I chose my user name in EF (just take the first four characters).  Many people thought it was Peter.  Yes, you can pronounce it as P--ter, i.e. the same as Peter.  However, the P in pteranodon is silent.

I really wish I could fly!  Unfortunately, I do not have any more direct experience of the sky or celestial objects than you do because I don't know how to fly a plane, not to mention a spaceship! 

  
Kooyeen  #521767  Sun, 01 Jun 08 07:30 PM
Well, "sky" is not really a technical word, and it refers to whatever you "can see" up there. If you really want to be "technical", then you'd need to use more specific terms like "atmosphere" and "space", and not "sky" which is generic. Bartholomew, did you refer to Merriam Webster definition? It's:
the upper atmosphere or expanse of space that constitutes an apparent great vault or arch over the earth.
So it's not just the atmosphere. Airplanes in the sky. Stars in the sky. Even galaxies in the sky. All up there.
And the idiomatic collocation is stars in the sky. I guess you could say "on" too, if you were imagining the sky as a blue sheet that covers the earth, in a song, a poem, a piece of writing, etc. I really do not think astronomers or anyone who wanted to speak technically would say "stars through the sky" meaning "stars in the sky". They'd just say "stars in the sky", "stars in space", and instead of "seeing the stars through the sky" they'd probably say "seeing the stars through the atmosphere" or some other layer.
Just my opinion.


Pter
I really wish I could fly!... ....I don't know how to fly a plane, not to mention a spaceship! 

Well, you can try anyway. You just have to think of a clever way to fly. Don't use wax wings, they already tried that, and I'm not sure it worked very well. Stick out tongue
  
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Philip  #521831  Mon, 02 Jun 08 12:20 AM
Osee

I am feeling the atmosphere here is not right now. If my sense is right, I am sorry initializing this.


It certainly isn't your fault, Osee.  You had a perfectly legitimate question, and some of us just got caught up in some "fun".  As GG said, we should perhaps be more careful about our carryings on, for the sake of students who are trying to learn.  This topic should have been transfered to another section of the forums earlier in the discussion.  I frequent another lanugage site where this discussion would have been locked very soon in the game, because they don't tolerate anything like this.  But, that's one reason I don't go there very often.  I far prefer this site.
  
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Pter  #521888  Mon, 02 Jun 08 04:37 AM
Kooyeen
Don't use wax wings, they already tried that, and I'm not sure it worked very well.
It did work in Greek mythology until Icarus soar through the sky and got too close to the Sun!  A hang glider would be a better option, but I am not sure I have the guts to try it.
  
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