We have partnered with TradePub to bring you free industry magazines and resources - no coupons or credit cards required!

Visit: englishforums.tradepub.com


1 2 3 4 5 6
Share this topic:
miriam  +  47963 Wed, 29 Sep 04 11:03 AM
Hi, Jim.

You may no longer remember this thread, but I will still post a response. I haven't been around lately, that's why I haven't answered so far.

1. I have no comments about this point. And then, I tend to agree with grammar books! Smile [:)]

2. There IS a difference between the imperative and the subjunctive moods; each mood (indicative, imperative, etc.) is different from the others. Even when the same verb form may be used for different moods, the meaning is still different.
"Please, live long, King" is different from the explanation I posted (May the king live long). The sentence with "please" is a sentence in the imperative mood (in form, but not in meaning because you wouldn't "command" a person to live), while the sentence without "please" and where "may" can be added is an example of the subjunctive mood. There is no command involved in that sentence; it expresses a wish.

3. In my country, the correct forms of conditional sentences are the ones I posted. Some people use the wrong combinations, but they are usually uneducated people, and those expressions are frowned upon. I haven't read the books you mentioned, but I insist that, at least in Argentina, the subjunctive and the conditional cannot be used interchangeably.
The subjunctive is not a "normal" replacement of the conditional even when Butt and Benjamin to suggest it is. "Hubiera/hubiese" are not correct

"Si V. no hubiera/hubiese acudido generosamente en mi ayuda, ya habría muerto de hambre" is correct; any other forms that involve mood changes are not.

Regards,

Miriam
Joined on Mon, May 10 2004
Argentina
Regular Member 821
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." Plato
Guest, 5 yr 40 days ago
Miriam,

I see that your last post on this thread wasn't so long ago, so I thought I'd throw in one more question. Are there any cases where one uses the conditional tense without the subjunctive mood? Or are all uses of the conditional considered subjunctive, because the nature of the conditional indicates something that is "contrary to fact?"

-Chris
Klavier  +  50587 Sat, 16 Oct 04 12:19 AM
Hi Miriam (I hope any moderator can answer this question if Miriam is not available).
Great thread, it's very useful. I guess even teachers and linguistics and native speakers have huge problems understanding the subjunctive. Well my question is: at the beginning of the teaching of english is it possible to leave out the subjunctive for spanish speakers? I mean this mood only changes for 3º person, there isn't a change of the root of the verb itself, so taking your examples:
>> "They insisted that she go with them."
>> "It is vital that the boy remain in the school grounds until his parents arrive."
"It is necessary that he be here on time tomorrow"
"We wish that he do what he pleases."
"Thdey urged that she write and accept the post."
""The King ordered that the man be released."

Can we say: (I read in a book that this is informal)
>> "They insisted that she GOES with them."
>> "It is vital that the boy REMAINS in the school grounds until his parents arrive."
"It is necessary that he IS here on time tomorrow"
"We wish that he DOES what he pleases."
"Thdey urged that she WRITES and accept the post."
""The King ordered that the man IS released."
Are they right?
So, just for a better understanding one doesn't worry about any change in the verb, and we speak like infinitive in all cases. Suggestions?
Joined on Thu, Sep 23 2004
Chile
Full Member 357
"If I have seen further, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants" Isaac Newton
Mister Micawber  +  50593 Sat, 16 Oct 04 01:20 AM
Without getting into this discussion myself (my Spanish is limited to 'buenos dias'), I will tell you that your 'informal' sentences are too wrong to teach; you will hear some of them, but their use even in spoken English is nonstandard at best.

Joined on Wed, Aug 4 2004
Yokohama
Veteran Member 30,760
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master-- that's all.'
MrPedantic  +  50600 Sat, 16 Oct 04 01:48 AM
Hello Latin

Those sentences are quite formal in structure. This means they sound
incongruous when you insert an 'informal' zone in the middle. It's like
wearing jeans with a tuxedo.

An easier way of avoiding the subjunctive is to change the idiom.
For instance, native BrE speakers seldom use direct equivalents
of 'que + subjunctive', except in very boring memos to each other
at work. Instead, they use constructions like this:

'They said she had to go with them.'
'The boy will have to stay in the school grounds till his parents get here.'
'He must be here on time tomorrow.'
'We want him to be able to do what he likes.'
'They told her to write and accept the offer.'
'The king ordered the man's release.'

MrP
Joined on Tue, Oct 12 2004
Veteran Member 12,592
...opella forensis / adducit febris...
Klavier  +  51272 Wed, 20 Oct 04 10:34 PM
Hi, I think I'm more clear now, and I have to learn subjunctive just as it is, without the informal 'noise' for the 3º person, thanks a lot for this explanation. By the way I asked a question because in a book of Cambridge University Press, the author gives these examples:
They recommended that he should give up writing.
They recommended that he give up writing (more formal)
They recommended that he gives up writing (less formal).
I just thought that the third sentence could be a best way for learning, but now I know the subtle meanings. thanks.
ripley  +  55928 Wed, 17 Nov 04 10:49 PM
Dear Jim,
I have a very big problem. Crying [:'(] I' m not sure if the following sentences are correct..
I know that the wish structure requires a simple past, usually were, had and modals such as could. But what happen if I need to use other verbs such as go, buy and so on; Is it possible to say I wish I bought a moped ( with the same meaning of I wish I could buy) or I wish I went to London; I wish you studied more; I wish I lived in the countryside?
In these cases I want to refer to a present situation and not to the past ( otherwise I would have used the past perfect..) am I correct? If not, can you tell me why?
Thanks a lot. Rip.
Joined on Wed, Nov 17 2004
New Member 11
CalifJim  +  55992 Thu, 18 Nov 04 09:19 AM
First, let me make a few observations.

1. All wishes are counterfactual. It makes no sense to wish for what you already have. The Queen of England does not say, "I wish I were the Queen of England". If I am six feet tall, I do not say, "I wish I were six feet tall". So every wish is a wish for something to be different from what we know it to be.

2. "wish" is a little strange in the way it affects the interpretation of the tense forms in the proposition which follows it. Specifically, to express a wish about the present, the simple past* is used; to express a wish about the past, the past perfect* is used.

3. The present tense cannot express the perfective aspect of a verb, that is, it cannot express a finished punctual action. Therefore, in the tense-shifted world of the propositions which follow "wish", the past cannot express a punctual action. Here's an example: "I buy shoes" cannot have a punctual interpretation. Therefore, neither can "I wish I bought shoes". In both cases, a habitual aspect is signaled. To express the perfective aspect, it would be necessary to say "I bought a pair of shoes". Likewise, we must say "I wish I had bought a pair of shoes", not "I wish I bought a pair of shoes." Nevertheless, to complicate matters, people sometimes do say "I wish I bought a pair of shoes" when they mean "I wish I had bought a pair of shoes".

*Technically, these are the past subjunctive and the past perfect subjunctive. The past subjunctive is indistinguishable from the simple past except for the verb "to be", which is always "were" in the past subjunctive, regardless of person or number. The past perfect subjunctive is completely indistinguishable from the past perfect. Not even the verb "to be" is an exception. "had been" is the form in both past perfect tenses, whether subjunctive or not.

Now for some examples:

A wish for something in the past, i.e., a wish that the past had been different, a wish for the past to have been different. In these, a perfective (past punctual act) may occur in the proposition which expresses what is wished.

I wish you had told me.
I wish I had seen him while he was in town.
Don't you wish Larry had been there to see it? It was hilarious.
They wish I had been quicker to respond to their request.
Do you ever wish you had been born into a rich family?
We wish our son had been accepted into the university of his choice.
I wish I had bought that leather coat when it was on sale.

A wish for something in the present, i.e., a wish that the present were different, a wish for the present to be different. In these, only imperfective aspect (something stative or habitual) may occur in the proposition which expresses what is wished.

You're probably wishing that you lived somewhere else.
"I wish my husband loved me," said Sara, with a sigh.
Paul wishes he knew how to solve that problem.
I wish I had enough money to buy that car.
I wish I were rich. I wish I were famous.

A wish for something in the future, i.e., a wish that the future would be different, a wish for the future to be different.

Note there is something anomalous here. In the case of the past and the present, we already know what is true and real. Because we know what the truth and the reality of the situation was (or is) we can wish that it had been (or were) different. But no one knows the future. How is it possible then to wish that it will be different? Different from what? Different from another possible future which we know equally poorly?

Because of this anomaly, there is not much need for a standard way to wish for something in the future. The verb "wish" is usually changed to "want" or "hope" for such cases. Nevertheless, there is a construction with "wish" that does come close to wishing for a different future, or at least wishing for a particular future which may be less likely than what is desired. The construction I have in mind is "...wish (that) ... would ..." Again, note the tense-shifted world of "wish": The 'present' is "will"; the 'past (subjunctive)' of "will" is "would". So to express a wish for something in the future, we use the 'past of the future', namely "would".

In this construction, the person wishing and the person doing what is wished are almost always different. "I wish I would ...", "You wish you would ...", (and so on) are not extremely logical. For example, if I want to watch TV, I just turn on the TV and watch. I don't say "I wish I would watch TV", because I am quite capable of granting my own wish! The two persons can be the same, however, if what is wished is that something that can be seen as happening to the subject: "The movie star wishes she would get more fan mail" or "I wish I would win the lottery".

I wish the teacher would stop droning on.
I wish you would be more polite.
He wishes that you would come and visit him more often.
I'll bet you wish that your wife would serve you breakfast in bed.
My parents wish that I would get better grades.

Here are the (approximately) equivalent paraphrases with "want" and "hope".

I want the teach to stop droning on. I hope the teacher will stop droning on.
I want you to be more polite. I hope you'll be more polite.
He wants you to come and visit him more often. He hopes you will come and visit him more often.
I'll bet you want your wife to serve you breakfast in bed. I'll bet you're hoping your wife will serve you breakfast in bed.
My parents want me to get better grades. My parents hope that I'll get better grades.

Smile [:)]
CJ
Joined on Mon, Aug 2 2004
California
Veteran Member 22,380
"There are no facts, only interpretations" - Nietzsche
ripley  +  56053 Thu, 18 Nov 04 06:50 PM
Hi Jim, thanks for your reply. Please, tell me if I got it right :s I can use the simple past (which is actually a past subjunctive) only with verbs with an imperfective aspect ( love, live, have, be), that is stative verbs or verbs which express habitual actions (It's not very simple to distinguish these two categories for me...)

Therefore I cannot say I wish I bought ( because the verb buy has perfective aspect; and what's more many people could understand I wish I had bought..)
but I can say I wish I could buy.. ( because the modal probably expresses an imperfective aspect..) Am I right?

I have another doubt anyway. you told me about the construction with would and in your examples you use it as it were a "neutral form" , as a simple equivalent to the idea " I hope....will"; the fact is that I have read that wish+would implies a sort of irritation on the speaker's part....What do you think about it? From what you said I understand that it is not always true that wish+would implies irritation...
Besides, someone in the web told me to say " I wish the weather were nice" instead of "the weather would be nice" . Is it just an option or is my construction with would not possible in this case? If it isn't possible, could you tell me why? Has that to do with the fact that the verb be is a stative verb and perhaps you use would only with active verbs????

P.S.
In all grammar books and in the grammar pages on the web I read they simply tell you to use WISH+SIMPLE PAST; but they don't mention the fact that it is not a real simple past and don't tell you to be careful and not to use the "simple past" with verbs with perfective aspects. Why do they do that, or better, why don't they do that? Are they crazy? Not to specify such things leads to errors and misunderstanding..........:@

Thank you very much for your help. I' m looking forward to hearing from you soon;)
Bye. Rip
1 2 3 4 5 6
© MediaCet Ltd. 2009, v5.0.3607.32596. All content posted by our users is a contribution to the public domain, this does not include imported usenet posts.*
For web related enquires please contact us on webmaster@mediacet.com, status updates are available at status.mediacet.com.
*Usenet post removal: Use 'X-No-Archive'. You may not have understood that your posts would end up in the public domain. Please send proof of the poster's email, we will remove immediately.