Subjunctive after adjectives

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Inchoateknowledge  #251688  Wed, 02 Aug 06 05:27 PM
They are insisting he go/goes to Athens.
It is advisable that he spend (not spends) the summer holidays with you.

why is 'spends' not correct?


  
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CalifJim  #251706  Wed, 02 Aug 06 06:02 PM
I assume that the first sentence is there for a reason, and that you wish to understand why it allows both forms while the second allows only one.

The reason is that insist has two meanings, or two shades of meaning, if you will.

If you insist that someone goes to Athens, you are saying quite firmly that you know that the person makes regular trips to and from Athens.  The person goes (regularly, as a habit) to Athens, and you know it, and you state it firmly, possibly in the face of resistance from others who do not believe it.

If you insist that someone go to Athens, you are in deliberative mode.  A decision is being made whether the person should go to Athens (make one trip there).  You envision the person traveling to Athens.  That envisioned act is what you firmly want to happen, and you argue in favor of it.

On the other hand, it is advisable has no meaning that allows a similar interpretation.  You can't say, for example,

He spends the holidays with you (regularly, habitually), and that's what is advisable / what I advise.

(It's too late to advise anything once you already know the facts.)

Therefore, the second sentence means that the spending of holidays with you is an envisioned act -- and that this envisioned act should become a reality in the future, i.e., that it is advisable for it to become a reality.  Envisioned acts are often expressed in the subjunctive.  An alternative is the FOR ... TO ... construction:

It is advisable for him to spend the holidays with you.

Does this help?
CJ

  
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Inchoateknowledge  #251717  Wed, 02 Aug 06 06:35 PM
"If you insist that someone goes to Athens, you are saying quite firmly that you know that the person makes regular trips to and from Athens.  The person goes (regularly, as a habit) to Athens, and you know it, and you state it firmly, possibly in the face of resistance from others who do not believe it."

This meaning of insist expresses serious possibility, does it not? You know that he always goes to Athens; therefore, you say,  this time he will do so again.
It is an assumption that is the mother of... (not success Smile [:)]  )

The other suggestion of the word is that you want  sg to happen (wish)

With both shades I see the application of subjunctive mood obligatory.

It is advisable that he spend (not spends) the summer holidays with you = wish, thus subjunctive.

I am still confused


  
Maple  #251720  Wed, 02 Aug 06 06:45 PM

Sorry for butting in.

You know what! We’re only taught to learn it by rote this list of nouns and verbs “demand, proposal, suggestion; suggest, advise, order, command, insist, require, request……” And are never told the semantic meaning in common of all these words. “Envisioned act” has never been mentioned by them. What a pity!

  
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Inchoateknowledge  #251722  Wed, 02 Aug 06 06:50 PM
In those cases where subjunctive inflection is allowed, indicative inflection is allowed too.


  
CalifJim  #251723  Wed, 02 Aug 06 06:52 PM
This meaning of insist expresses serious possibility, does it not?

No.  Not to me.  It expresses conviction and certainty.

She insists that she  is right.  (She knows that she is right, and says so with great conviction.)

There is a clear and definite difference between

1. Mother insists that Johnny take his medicine.

and

2. Mother insists that Johnny takes his medicine.

In 1, we are likely at home with Johnny and his mother.  Johnny may be putting up a fuss, not wanting to take his medicine, but Mother says he has to do it.  She insists on it.  She is not going to take "No" as an answer.  She insists that he take his medicine.

In 2, we are likely in the doctor's office.  The doctor sees that Johnny is not getting better.  He questions Johnny's mother about whether Johnny has been taking his medicine.  Mother says with great conviction, "My son takes his medicine three times a day as prescribed".  She insists that he takes it.

CJ
  
Alienvoord  #251731  Wed, 02 Aug 06 07:12 PM
that's a good description of the two meanings of "insist" CalifJim. I never looked at it like that before.

However I think it's worth pointing out that Inchoateknowledge is also right: where the subjunctive is allowed, the indicative is also acceptable. That means that "Mother insists that Johnny takes his medicine" is ambiguous for a lot of people.
  
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Inchoateknowledge  #251739  Wed, 02 Aug 06 07:57 PM
"It expresses conviction and certainty." This is the key to my problem.
THanks Jim.
  
Inchoateknowledge  #251741  Wed, 02 Aug 06 08:05 PM
The first sentence I took from a formal context where subjunctive is required and thesecond one is part of an informal text where subjunctive is optional, IMO.
Or, no, it does not justify the usage, sorry.
  
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