subjunctive and 2nd conditional

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Believer  #489097  Sat, 15 Mar 08 03:16 AM

Hi,

I was trying to brush up on my knowledge of 2nd conditionals and came to have these questions:

I think 2nd conditionals encompass those 1) that are hypothetical yet possible and 2) that are unreal (thus impossible to be realized in reality).

Then, I read it somewhere that the subjunctive is not used in cases where a possibilty is present; then, is it safe to assume that if there is any possibility (or chance??) of something being realized, however small that possibility might be, the subjunctive should not be used?

Then, is it that the subjunctive can be said to encompass part of the second conditional cases where the notion something not be real is present, but not the part that has the element of something hypothetical but still possible present?   

  
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Marius Hancu  #489105  Sat, 15 Mar 08 03:26 AM
Could you come up with some clear examples wrt your problems? We're just moving around words here. Be specific.

Use these for references (I consider the first the best):   

 http://www.englishpage.com/conditional/conditionalintro.html

 http://www.englishclub.com/grammar/verbs-conditional_3.htm

  
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CalifJim  #489133  Sat, 15 Mar 08 06:21 AM
Believer
I think 2nd conditionals encompass those 1) that are hypothetical yet possible and 2) that are unreal (thus impossible to be realized in reality).
No.  The traditional divisiion into the three conditional patterns is as follows:

1. If [present], (then) ... will ...   REAL 

2. If [past*], (then) ... would ...   UNREAL

3. If [past perfect], (then) ... would have ...  UNREAL, COUNTERFACTUAL

*The past is sometimes called the past subjunctive in this position.  Only the verb to be has a special form (were in all persons and numbers) in this position.

Other combinations of tenses in these kinds of if patterns have no numeric designators (like fourth, fifth, or sixth conditional) except occasionally in specific textbooks which invent their own methods and terms for teaching purposes.  Some writers consider all these other patterns mixed conditionals.

Examples:

1.  If the water gets hot enough, it will boil.  

2.  If he put the picture up a little higher, it would look better.

3.  If we had taken the medicine, we would not have got sick.

Don't take the idea of "real" and "unreal" too seriously.  The first and second conditionals are often nearly identical in meaning.  The first states the idea as a fact.  The second states it as an imagined action.

If you press this button, the gate will open. (Fact.  This always happens.)

If you pressed this button, the gate would open.  (Information about what to do if you want to open the gate -- not that you necessarily want to open it just now.)

The third conditional is more obviously "unreal".  Neither clause taken separately actually happened.

If you had pressed this button, the gate would have opened.  (You didn't press the button, and the gate didn't open.  But more than that, the gate didn't open because you didn't press the button.) 

CJ 

 

  
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