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CalifJim  +  80545 Sat, 12 Mar 05 04:52 AM
From http://www.sole.leidenuniv.nl/content_docs/ConsoleXII2003pdfs/vlachou-2003.pdf ---

More precisely, in (23), the modality is epistemic or, as Condoravdi points out, “the possibility is in view of the epistemic state of the speaker”. In (24), the modality is metaphysical: “we are now located in a world whose past included the (unactualized) possibility of his winning the game”.

(23) He may/might have (already) won the game (# but he didn’t).

(24) At that point, he might still have won the game, but he didn’t in the end.

From http://www.cs.tcd.ie/publications/tech-reports/reports.02/TCD-CS-2002-39.pdf ---

(1) He might have won.

We can read (1) epistemically as in (2) or metaphysically as in (3).

(2) He might have, for all I know, won.
(3) He might have, at that stage, won, but he didn’t.

The words ‘might’ and ‘have’ are analyzed ... by functions MIGHT and PERF, in terms
of which (1)’s epistemic reading arises from, roughly put,

MIGHT(PERF(he-win))

and (1)’s counterfactual reading from the reversed scoping

PERF(MIGHT(he-win)) .

_______

Personally, I would paraphrase thus:

Epistemic: It is possible that he won.
(Lack of knowledge about whether he won or not.)

Metaphysical: It was possible that he [would / was going to] win.
(Knowledge that the potential actually existed for him to win.)

Another example: Supposing a child was playing dangerously close to deep water:

The child might have fallen into the water (and drowned).

Epistemic reading, not knowing where the child is:
The child might have fallen into the water = It is possible that the child fell into the water.

Metaphysical reading, knowing that the child is now safe:
The child might have fallen into the water = The potential existed (then) for the child to fall into the water. (But that potential was unfulfilled.)

At least, that's my interpretation of the terms as used in that article. By the way, it is not, in my opinion, the same as the way "epistemic" is used in other contexts. To me it's a somewhat special use of the word "epistemic".

CJ
Joined on Mon, Aug 2 2004
California
Veteran Member 22,389
"There are no facts, only interpretations" - Nietzsche
paco2004  +  80599 Sat, 12 Mar 05 12:12 PM
CJ

Thank you a lot for the explanation. I down-loaded the two pdfs but I haven't read them yet. As I'm not familiar with linguistic terms, I'm afraid those articles would be quite hard to read through.

But reading the article I found and your message, I noticed my first thought about English modals is wrong. What I deemed as "subjunctive modals" seems mostly to belong to epistemic modals. Maybe, subjunctive modals would be limited to be those used in conditionals. Though I have not yet thought about uses of modals in questioning sentences, the outlines of English modals I am now conceiving is as below.

Sentence : S + modal + V, Event : S + V,
P(E);the likelihood conceived by the speaker about the event occurence

(1) indicative (or metaphysical) modals
P(E)=1 in this case.
Modal's tense form reflects the event-time (the time the event (SV) takes place).

(2) epistemic modals
0 The event time is independent from modal's tense form.
The event time is expressed by other means (have + PP/time adverbials).

(3) subjunctive modals
P(E)=0. Used in conditionals or alike.

It's what I have understood about modals until now but I have not yet considered the uses of modals in questioning and asking sentences. So maybe this way of understanding also would been also soon siscarded.

paco
Joined on Wed, Nov 17 2004
Senior Member 4,095
In Japan today even dogs are learning how to bow-wow in English.
Guest, 4 yr 208 days ago
I am "Recusant." I'm new to this forum and I don't have password yet so I've signed in as a guest.

Your comments on the subjunctive in English suggest that you are attempting to "shoe-horn" English into Latin grammatical concepts. I'm a bit of a linguistic iconoclast when it comes to this sort of thing.

The English subjunctive is very straightforward for the simple reason that it barely exists anymore. It's confined to two instances:

1. The use of the "base" form of the verb in the present third person singular rather than the "-Email [E]s" inflected form; and

2. The use of "were" rather than "was" in the first and second person singular.

But even these isolated forms are on the wane. It's very common these days to hear "if I was a bird."

In all other circumstances where a Romance language would resort to a subjunctive form of the verb, English either gets along without it or creates the same semantic effect through the use of a modal verb and an infinitive ("may you live long and prosper").
MrPedantic  +  94374 Thu, 28 Apr 05 11:59 PM
Welcome to English Forums, Recusant!

MrP
Joined on Tue, Oct 12 2004
Veteran Member 12,592
...opella forensis / adducit febris...
MrPedantic  +  94388 Fri, 29 Apr 05 01:47 AM
Your comments interest me, Recusant.

Take the subjunctive forms of 'facio', for instance:

faciam
facerem
fecerim
fecissem
fiam
fierem
factum sim
factum essem

What equivalents should we provide, in English translation, if we wish to convey the semantic effect of the subjunctive without resorting to archaism?

MrP
abbie1948, 4 yr 208 days ago
Mr.P
Vah! Denuone Latine loquebar? Me ineptum. Interdum modo elabitur.
Geeked [8-|]
Anonymous, 36 days ago
epistemic deals with acquiring knowledge "epistemology" and metaphysical is beyond the physical so ethereal ghostly
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