Subjunctive or past conditional

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Puzzled

#361942 Tue, 08 May 07 10:28 AM

Hi,

For clarity turn the sentence round as: If she saw his life there with her own eyes, his mother would understand ..

Isn't this just a plain old conditional 2 (imaginary)? 'Saw' is just what I used to know as imaginary past - the next best thing in English to the subjunctive.

Puzzled

Joined on Thu, Apr 19 2007

New Member (11)

Subjunctives, Conditionals

Bokeh

#361946 Tue, 08 May 07 10:46 AM

Puzzled wrote:
Isn't this just a plain old conditional 2 (imaginary)? 'Saw' is just what I used to know as imaginary past

No. "Saw" is indicative. In the case of the past it is something that has already happened. The OP's sentence is a hypothosis; not something which has happened.

Bokeh

Joined on Sun, Mar 18 2007

Spain

Regular Member (506)

Subjunctives, Conditionals

Taka

#361959 Tue, 08 May 07 11:39 AM

Goodman wrote:

It's not my business but I think as a non-native, your words are quite strong. Bokeh, if I remember correctly is a British native. Even among the natives on this forum, I don't believe we have an agreement on what is truly correct because subjunctive property can change with context and time and therefore depending on the perspective, one may see it differently than others. Unless you truly have the answer, please restrain your challenge.

I'm wondering if my previous words really sounded too strong to native speakers; if so, I'm sorry. But you have to understand that his comments were so unique—and different from what I've ever heard—that they made me keep wondering whether he/she was actually using Englsih as his/her frist language. In other words, I was just wondering what his/her nationality was. No callenge whatsoever intended. I was just wondering. Plus, after reading MrP's comments to him/her, I didn't think he/she was the same British as MrP, at least.

So, I'm still waiting for the citation. Bokeh, please let us check what your book actually says so we can make the discussions here fruitful.

Thank you.

Taka

Joined on Tue, Sep 7 2004

Japan

Senior Member (2,351)

Subjunctives

Taka

#361965 Tue, 08 May 07 12:07 PM

For your information, here is what Wikipedia says:

The terms present subjunctive and past subjunctive can be misleading, as they describe forms rather than meanings: the past and present subjunctives are so called because they resemble the past and present indicatives, respectively, but the difference between them is a modal one, not a temporal one.

[link]

Taka

Difference Between, Modals, Subjunctives

Taka

#361968 Tue, 08 May 07 12:20 PM

Anonymous wrote:

Here are a couple of sentences from the book (if you want to read more you will have to buy/borrow it):

The only living use of the subjunctive in ordinary English is the use of were:

in conditional subordinate clauses without a conjunction but with inversion: Were he to ask me it would be different... etc...
in object clauses with unreal content: Well, lifts were very convenient - she wished there were one to her own flat... etc...
in conditional and concessive clauses with a conjunction, with an unreal content: if I were to propose, would you accept?... etc...

Ah, I've found you, Bokeh.

Well, isn't it just that 'were', not 'was', which is actually used quite often in informal speech, should be prescriptively used when you want to use 'be' as subjunctive? Not that all the verbs as subjunctive have to be 'were to do'?

Taka

Verbs, Clauses, Subjunctives, Conditionals

Yankee

#361977 Tue, 08 May 07 12:48 PM

Hi Taka

In case you haven't found this yet, here is a link to what the American Heritage Book of English Usage has to say about the subjunctive:
[link]

Yankee

Joined on Sat, Apr 15 2006

Connecticut, USA

Senior Member (4,320)

Amy "You can't depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus." - Mark Twain

Subjunctives

Taka

#362006 Tue, 08 May 07 01:44 PM

Yankee wrote:
Hi Taka

In case you haven't found this yet, here is a link to what the American Heritage Book of English Usage has to say about the subjunctive:
[link]

Good, Yankee. Thanks for the URL. And I was particularly interested in these parts.

First, this part:

The past subjunctive is identical with the past tense except in the case of the verb be, which uses were for all persons: If I were rich …, If he were rich …, If they were rich…... The past subjunctive is sometimes called the were subjunctive, since were is the only subjunctive form that is distinct from the indicative past tense.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my reading of this part is that the past subjunctive is sometimes called the 'were' subjunctive, not because only 'were' could be used as subjunctive, but because the subjunctive 'were' is quite unique in that it is used for all persons as subjunctive.

Another interesting part—very interesting, indeed—was this:

Remember, just because the modal verb 'would' appears in the main clause, this doesn't mean that the verb in the if clause must be in the subjunctive if the content of that clause is not presupposed to be false.

So, it seems that Goodman's analysis here is not necessarily valid:

Goodman wrote:
<<He thought his mother would understand why he was living in Japan only if she saw his life there with her own eyes.

I'll say "subjunctive".

,and MrP's got the point:

MrPedantic wrote:
So perhaps the most we can say is "indeterminate"...

MrP

Taka

Verbs, Tenses, Clauses, Modals, Subjunctives, Past Tenses, Modal Verbs

Yankee

#362007 Tue, 08 May 07 01:51 PM

Hi Taka

I agree completely with MrP. Smile [:)]

Yankee

Subjunctives

Bokeh

#362016 Tue, 08 May 07 02:16 PM

Taka wrote:
Remember, just because the modal verb 'would' appears in the main clause, this doesn't mean that the verb in the if clause must be in the subjunctive if the content of that clause is not presupposed to be false.

The above is related to the following example sentence:

He would always call her from the office if he was (not were) going to be late for dinner.

Note: The above example is a repetative action, not a hypothosis as in the OPs post. Repetative actions take the present tense.

Also from the same article:

if clauses—the reality. In practice, of course, many people ignore the rules. In fact, over the last 200 years even well-respected writers have tended to use the indicative was where the traditional rule would require the subjunctive were. A usage such as: If I was the only boy in the world may break the rules, but it sounds perfectly natural.

Isn't that saying to use the indicative is wrong but widely accepted?

Bokeh

Articles, Verbs, Tenses, Clauses, Present Tenses, Modals, Subjunctives, Modal Verbs

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