subjunctive or past conditional

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Taka  #361567  Mon, 07 May 07 04:46 PM
He thought his mother would understand why he was living in Japan only if she saw his life there with her own eyes.

About 'only if she saw...', how would you native speakers perceive it?

(1) subjunctive
(2) past conditional (due to the sequence of tenses)
(3) either (1) or (2), depending on its context
  
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Goodman  #361569  Mon, 07 May 07 04:55 PM
<<He thought his mother would understand why he was living in Japan only if she saw his life there with her own eyes.

I'll say "sunjunctive".
  
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Kooyeen  #361641  Mon, 07 May 07 07:54 PM
Uh-oh! This is a difficult question! I lost a lot of time trying to understand how to use conditional sentences in reported speech, and in the end I didn't even understand completely! However, let's see if I can explain what I think:

He thought his mother would understand why he was living in Japan only if she saw his life there with her own eyes.
It could be, in direct speech:
  1. He thought: "My mother would understand why I am living in Japan only if she saw my life there with her own eyes."  - Here "would understand" is present conditional, "saw" is present subjunctive.
  2. He thought: "My mother will understand why I am living in Japan only if she sees my life there with her own eyes." - I don't think this kind of sentence is very common, considering the most common contexts.
So, considering that the first interpretation is more likely in most contexts, "saw" is subjunctive. If you wanted to consider the second interpretation, then "saw" in the original sentence would be a simple past (backshifted version of the simple present).

The problem I still have is that I'm not 100% sure if when you say something like "He thought his mother would understand why he was living in Japan only if she saw his life there with her own eyes," the fact that his mother would understand is always still relevant now. In other words, if Moses (some time before Christ) thought: "My mother would understand why I am living in Japan only if she saw my life there with her own eyes," would you report that as:
He thought his mother would understand why he was living in Japan only if she saw his life there with her own eyes, or as
He thought his mother would have understood why he was living in Japan only if she had seen his life there with her own eyes?

Heh...
  
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Bokeh  #361661  Mon, 07 May 07 08:12 PM
 Taka wrote:
He thought his mother would understand why he was living in Japan only if she saw his life there with her own eyes.
The sentence is not good. It should read:

He thought his mother would understand why he was living in Japan if only she were to see his life there with her own eyes.

or

He thought his mother would understand why he was living in Japan were she only to see his life there with her own eyes.

The above is the imperfect subjunctive which is needed for correct concordance with the conditional.
  
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Goodman  #361666  Mon, 07 May 07 08:22 PM

Kooyeen,

I thought you were leaving for Paris yesterday. Why are yo ustill here?  "I thought" meant "in my mind, I believe..'

In the context of this sentence "I thought (In my mind, I beleive) my mother would understand why he was living in Japan only if she saw his life there with her own eyes.

Goggle:

if: definition, usage and pronunciation - YourDictionary.com

On the condition that: She will play the piano only if she is paid. ... According to the traditional rule, the subjunctive should be used to describe an ...

1 Post tagged “false subjunctive” - Redzilla Attacks

The subjunctive mood in English is sometimes also referred to as the conditional, because it often describes a situation that would occur only if certain ...
redzilla.vox.com/library/posts/tags/false+subjunctive/ - 63k - Cached - Similar pages

  
Cool Breeze  #361686  Mon, 07 May 07 08:54 PM
 Goodman wrote:


I'll say "sunjunctive".

I agree. There's nothing wrong with the sentence.
CB
  
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Bokeh  #361731  Mon, 07 May 07 10:21 PM
 Cool Breeze wrote:
 Goodman wrote:


I'll say "sunjunctive".

I agree.
Of course it's not the subjunctive (but it should be). "Saw" is the simple past (indefinite preterite). This is a common error made by native english speakers in conjunction with the conditional.

The subjunctive of any verb takes either the same form as the bare infinitive (present subjunctive) or as I posted above (the imperfect subjunctive).
  
Goodman  #361768  Tue, 08 May 07 12:03 AM

Hi Bokeh,

Becasue of your reply, it made me take a second look at the original question. I also did some research and found this paper written on the subject of  Semantic Composition of Subjunctive Conditionals by Michela Ippolito of MIT/Tübingen University. I am not completely sure if I understood  all thwt he wrote, but I do agree whole-heartedly with his view from what I understood.  It's obvious that there are several subjunctive moods and conditionals discussed in great legnth which was exactly the reason  causing the confusions on this thread. I find it absoulutely useful so I've  extracted a small portion which I beleive was related the posted question.

 

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=type+of+subjunctive

michela@alum.mit.edu

 

3. The Semantic Analysis of Subjunctive Conditionals

In answering the question of what the correct semantic analysis of subjunctive

conditionals is we will raise and answer the following questions too: (1) What is the

difference between indicative an subjunctive conditionals? (2) What is the role of the

past morphology in the composition of the meaning of a subjunctive conditional? (3)

What is the contribution of the second layer of past to the meaning of subjunctive

conditionals? As Iatridou observes, the past morphology in subjunctive conditionals is

not interpreted temporally, as the event of playing baseball in example (2) is supposed

to take place in the future (tomorrow). What follows in this paper is inspired by her

work and by the intuition behind it, i.e. that the temporal morphology we see in modal

constructions actively contributes to the construction of the modal meaning. However,

I depart from her idea that tense morphology has a “core meaning” that can apply to

different kinds of entities (i.e. her idea that if it applies to times, it is interpreted

temporally; if it applies to worlds, then it is interpreted modally). My claim is that

tense (aspectual) morphology has a single, definite interpretation: the temporal

(aspectual) one. The way tense morphology contributes to the composition of modal

meaning is by being interpreted in different positions in the structure of a modal

sentence, i.e. either in the restriction or in the nuclear scope of the modal operator.

Recall that I am arguing that accessibility relations are of type <s<i<st>> (where i is

the type for times and s the type for worlds): the notion of accessible world is relative

not only to a world but also to a time so that a world will be accessible if it satisfies

certain conditions with respect to an evaluation world and an evaluation time. The

past that we see in subjunctive conditionals such as If Charlie played baseball

tomorrow, we would lose the game is the morphological realization of a perfect

operator interpreted in the modal domain. I will develop an analysis of the meaning of

subjunctive conditionals and show how it solves the puzzle of the presupposition

projection for subjunctive conditionals discussed in Heim 1992; finally, I will answer

the three questions I raised above.

 

3.1 Felicity Conditions for Conditionals

Recall what the puzzle was. The antecedent of a subjunctive conditional can be

inconsistent with the common ground, and consequently, the set of worlds the modal

operator quantifies over cannot be restricted to the worlds in the context set (the

epistemically accessible worlds) (see (19) below). Furthermore, this set cannot be the

empty context (W) either because, if it were, we would expect conditionals with

antecedents with presuppositions to be infelicitous since the modal base does not have

the right entailments. However, this is incorrect: subjunctive conditionals whose

antecedents have presuppositions are felicitous, which means that the antecedent’s

presuppositions can be entailed by the modal base (cf. (20)). In fact, they must (cf.

(21)).

(19) Jack is dead. If he were alive, he would come to the ceremony.

11

(20) Jack smokes. If he quit smoking tomorrow, which he won’t, he would run

the marathon.

(21) Jack quit smoking last year. If he quit smoking tomorrow, he would run

the marathon.

Heim 1992 concluded that the only way to reconcile these two requirements of

subjunctive conditionals is to stipulate that the modal base is neither the set of

epistemically accessible worlds (the main context) nor the totally empty modal base

W, but the (largest) set of worlds obtained by suspending all the speaker’s

assumptions except the presuppositions of the antecedent, which then remain entailed.

However, I showed above that this stipulation does not work for all subjunctive

conditionals: in particular, it does not account for the difference between one-past

subjunctive conditionals and mismatched two-pasts subjunctive conditionals, as

shown below.

(22) Jack died last year.

a. #If he came to the ceremony tomorrow, he would be proud of Sally.

b. If he had come to the graduation tomorrow, he would have been proud

of Sally.

We are back where we were: how is the set of worlds to which modal operators apply

selected? Clearly, the felicity conditions for indicative, one-past and two-pasts

subjunctive conditionals are all different. But what is the difference and how is the

difference determined?

It seems correct to hold that for a sentence to be felicitously uttered in the

context c, c must entail the presuppositions of . In the common ground theory of

presuppositions developed by Stalnaker (1973, 1974, 1975), the common ground is

the set of all the propositions known or assumed to be true by all the participants in

the conversation, and the context set is the set of worlds where all the propositions in

the common ground are true. Assertions are meant to update the common ground. If

the assertion is made and accepted, the common ground expands and the context set

shrinks. Thus, if a sentence presupposes p, then asserting requires that the

common ground entail p, i.e. it requires that the speaker assume that it is true in the

common ground that p, modulo accommodation.10 It is explicit in Heim’s context

change semantics (and implicit in Stalnaker’s idea of a derived context) that a clause

(that is to say, the structural description of a clause at the level of Logical Form) is not

always evaluated with respect to the context of utterance: the context with respect to

which a structure is evaluated depends on the level of embedding of the clause, the

most unembedded clause being interpreted with respect to the main (utterance)

context. We can then reformulate the principle above: what is responsible for the

felicity of a sentence is not whether its presuppositions are entailed by the utterance

context but whether they are entailed by the evaluation context (which may be

identical to the utterance time in some cases). Call this principle PREP.

10 Stalnaker (1972, 1973, 1974, 1978, 1988, 1998). Kartunnen (1974), Lewis (1979), Heim (1982,

1983, 1992), Thomason (1990) and von Fintel (2000) also contributed important work in the tradition

of the common ground theory of presuppositions.

 

3.2 What Looks Like Past is Perfect

I propose that the past morphology we see in subjunctive conditionals in English is

the morphological realization of a perfect operator. The English perfect, and

especially the present perfect, has raised a lot of interest in the linguistic literature

because of the properties that distinguish it from both the present and the simple past

tense. McCoard (1978) offers a survey of possible theories of the perfect: the current

relevance theory, the indefinite past theory, the embedded past theory and, finally, the

theory that he argues to be the best, the Extended Now theory. Very briefly, according

11 The claim that the presuppositions of the antecedent of a conditional have to be entailed by the

context is a standard claim of a dynamic approach to meaning (Heim 1992). However, we will see later

that the issue is more intricate and I will have more to say on this topic later on in the paper.

 

 

 

  
Yankee  #361788  Tue, 08 May 07 12:34 AM
As Kooyeen suggested, couldn't the original sentence be seen this way?

His direct speech: "(What I think is that) my mother will understand why I am living in Japan only if she sees my life here with her own eyes."