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subjunctive, this sentence

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Swiss Jake  #200833  Sat, 25 Feb 06 07:10 PM

Hello!

I have read that "to suggest" triggers the subjunctive. Therefore the base from must be used. How is it in this sentence, I found on the internet.

"Donut" is informal and is quite commonly used in BE to suggest that the bun is/be of a typical American character.

Thanks for every help.

Jake

  
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paco2004  #200872  Sat, 25 Feb 06 09:36 PM

"Suggest" has two usages.

1) As a synonym to "propose" or "advise". In this case, the subject is commonly persons, and when a that-clause is used as the object, the clausal sentence is expressed in present subjunctive (AmE) or with use of "should" (BrE).
         (EX) They suggested that the US (should) stop the war in Iraq.

2) As synonyms to "indicate" and "hint". In these cases, the subject can be either persons or things, and when a that-clause is used as the object, the clausal sentence is expressed in normal indicative mood.
         (EX) Her smiles suggested that she had forgiven him.
         (EX) He suggested that he knew our secret relationship.

The answer to your question: Use "is".

paco

  
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CalifJim  #200874  Sat, 25 Feb 06 09:53 PM
Yes, as Paco says, "suggest" has different meanings.

In your sentence
"Donut " is informal ... used in British English to suggest that ...,
the meaning is 'give an indication', not 'make a proposal'.

You aren't saying in this sentence that anybody wants the bun to have a certain character.  (If they took your suggestion, they would make the bun have this character.)
You're saying that something indicates (in some partial way) that the bun has a certain character (already).

CJ

  
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Swiss Jake  #201306  Mon, 27 Feb 06 02:31 AM

Hi Paco, Jim.

Thanks a lot for answering me, it understand that now. Thanks.

@ Jim. I have been reading the posts about the subjunctive.

You wrote:

Did you really intend to include the verbs "wish", "order", and "urge"? They are the only ones in the list that my "native-speaker ear" doesn't seem to accept, especially "wish". Are these (below with the ??) considered acceptable? Are they considered formal? My ear may be rejecting them because they are used so seldom. Could that be?

I wish that he go. ?? I wish that he would go. ??
I demand that he go.

I order that he go. ?? I order him to go.
I suggest that he go.
I propose that she go.
I recommend that she go.
I urge that she go. ?? I urge her to go.

I insist that she go. 


"If I would have time, I would help you.">>

Fine and dandy for the Type II conditional.
And yet the variant of the Type III conditional:

If I had had time, I had helped you. (Again, English "equivalents" -- hubiera, hubiera)

is not considered a huge mistake. Am I right? If so,I find that strange, since it deviates from "If I had had time, I would have helped you." as much as "If I would have time, I would help you" deviates from "If I had (were to have) time, I would help you.". (One of the two clauses is in the "wrong mood/tense" in each case.) Isn't language a curious thing? !

I think these are excellent questions and I have been wondering about the answers. I could not find the answer in the posts, so can you tell me about it?

Thank you very much!

Jake

  
CalifJim  #201318  Mon, 27 Feb 06 03:05 AM
Jake,

Some of these (toward the end of what you quote) had to do with translations to and from Spanish.  I'm going to ignore that part.
As far as English is concerned, I believe there are sites where you can find lists of verbs that take the subjunctive.  Many of them also take other constructions as well.

The only verbs I personally use with the subjunctive with any regularity are suggest, insist, recommend, propose, and demand, and then only in fairly formal contexts.  (At least I can't think of others right now.)
I don't use the subjunctive construction for wish, urge, and order.

Slightly more formal structures:

I suggest that she find a better way to say it.
We insist that he take the exam.
They recommend that Mr. Snyder send an application for the job.
Peter is demanding that we be served immediately.
The Smiths are proposing that Jill visit them in August.


Less formal structures illustrating a variety of techniques for rephrasing a subjunctive structure:

I think she should find a better way to say it.
In our opinion, he should take the exam.  In fact, we insist on it.
Their recommendation is for Mr. Snyder to send an application for the job.
Peter is making it quite clear that he wants us to be served immediately.
The Smiths said that they would like Jill to visit them in August.


urge/order (someone) to ...

I urge you to answer the letter at once.
The police have ordered us to leave the area immediately.

wish ... would ...
I wish the rain would stop. (Maybe it will; maybe it won't.)

wish ... had ...
I wish the rain had stopped.  (It didn't.)

CJ
  
Swiss Jake  #201633  Tue, 28 Feb 06 12:21 AM

CJ, 
thanks for answering.

1)

I wish that he go, is wrong? The correct form is: I wish that he would go. ?
I demand that he go.
correct that way?
I order that he go, wrong? I order him to go. correct? What about: He orders that he goes. ??
I suggest that he go. correct?
I propose that she go. correct?
I recommend that she go. correct?
I urge that she go. correct?  I urge her to go.
right too? more modern though?
I insist that she go. correct?

More importantly, you would avoid the examples above, even if correct, to speak authentic English? For example: instead of the correct, but very formal, sentence " I suggest that he go."     you You would probably say: I think he should goe. Or, he'd better go, etc.

How is it in writing?

2)

I believe there are sites where you can find lists of verbs that take the subjunctive. yes: http://www.englishpage.com/minitutorials/subjunctive.html

They say subjucntive after:

to advise
to ask
to command
to demand
to desire
to insist
to propose
to recommend
to request
to suggest
to urge

and:

It is best (that)
It is crucial (that)
It is desirable (that)
It is essential (that)
It is imperative (that)
It is important (that)
It is recommended (that)
It is urgent (that)
It is vital (that)
It is a good idea (that)
It is a bad idea (that)

3) To speak authentic English, do you really say: If I were president, I would stop the war? Or do you say, If I was president, I would stop the war?

The first one would be the correct one, right?

Another example: If this question was important, I would answer it more accurately. vs, I this question were ...

 

Thank you very, very much!!

Jake

  
CalifJim  #201668  Tue, 28 Feb 06 02:26 AM
Jake,

I don't think that "right" and "wrong" are exactly what we're dealing with here.  If I say one of these is wrong, there is sure to be another forum member who will say it's right.  Many of these are borderline cases.  But I'll let you know, below, the cases that are definitely correct.

I wish that he go, is wrong? The correct form is: I wish that he would go. ?
I have never heard anybody use "I wish that he go".  Everybody says "I wish that he would go".

I demand that he go. correct that way? Yes.
I order that he go, wrong? borderline, I wouldn't use it I order him to go. correct? yes. What about: He orders that he goes. ?? No, definitely not!!!
I suggest that he go. correct? yes
I propose that she go. correct? yes
I recommend that she go. correct? yes
I urge that she go. correct? correct, borderline, I wouldn't use it.  I urge her to go.
right too? yes more modern though? yes
I insist that she go. correct?  yes

More importantly, you would avoid the examples above, even if correct, to speak authentic English? For example: instead of the correct, but very formal, sentence " I suggest that he go."   You would probably say: I think he should goe. Or, he'd better go, etc.  Yes, your comments about authentic American English are correct!

How is it in writing?  Formal writing (not informal writing, as in a letter to a friend) makes greater use of the subjunctive forms you asked about above. (You can still use the subjunctive structures in informal contexts if you want, of course. They are not SO formal that you need to wear a tuxedo to say them!)

CJ



  
CalifJim  #201671  Tue, 28 Feb 06 02:46 AM
Jake,

Many speakers have dropped the distinction between "was" and "were" in  IF-clauses. They don't use "were" after I, he, she, etc.  Others still use "were" in contrary-to-fact IF-clauses.  The writers of grammar books recommend the use of "were" in those cases, if that makes a difference to you. In your place, I would certainly use it in formal writing.  I have not done any scientific research on it, but it seems to me that educated people tend to use If I were, If she were even in completely informal situations.  I use it all the time, so it sounds pretty authentic and not particularly formal to me!

Note:  There are IF-clauses that are not contrary-to-fact IF-clauses.  These would correctly take "If I was", etc., even according to the grammar books.

If she was sorry, she certainly didn't act it.    (Not were here.)
If she were sorry, she would have shown it. (were, but some speakers use was here).

In the first example, there is some doubt about whether she was sorry.
In the second example, we are saying that she wasn't sorry.

CJ


  
Swiss Jake  #201676  Tue, 28 Feb 06 03:11 AM

CJ,

Yes [Y]         Perfect replies!!! It greatly helped me to understand it.

Thanks a lot, I really appreciate it!!!

Kindest regards, Jake

  
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