Subjunctive using modal verb

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Anonymous

#377328 Sun, 10 Jun 07 09:28 AM

Hi,

It has been shown to me that the subjunctive can be created using modal verbs like 'shall' and 'should' and 'may' and 'might'.

Are the modal verbs in parentheses optional or they should be in the sentences for the subjunctive to exist?

1. I recommend that he (should) be put in jail.

Doesn't the subjunctive exist eventhough 'should' isn't in the sentence like this?

I recommend that he be put in jail.

2. I gave him some very personal gifts as he was leaving so that he (might) remember.

Doesn't the subjunctive exist still without the 'might'?

I gave him some very personal gifts as he was leaving so that he remember.

Anonymous

Verbs, Modals, Subjunctives, Modal verbs

Mister Micawber

#377434 Sun, 10 Jun 07 02:03 PM

1. I recommend that he be put in jail. -- This is a use of the mandative subjunctive.

I recommend that he should be put in jail. -- This is a use of putative should, a primarily BrE alternative to the subjunctive.

2. I gave him some very personal gifts as he was leaving so that he might remember. -- This is not a subjunctive, it is merely hypothetical (one of the uses to which the subjunctive is also put) and 'might' cannot be omitted here.

(X) I gave him some very personal gifts as he was leaving so that he remember. -- This sentence is no good.

Mister Micawber

Joined on Wed, Aug 4 2004

Yokohama

Veteran Member (22,300)

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master-- that's all.'

Modals, Subjunctives

Anonymous

#377487 Sun, 10 Jun 07 04:34 PM

Mister Micawber wrote:

(X) I gave him some very personal gifts as he was leaving so that he remember. -- This sentence is no good.

Yes, it sounds a peculiar as do many subjunctive constructions, but I don't see anything grammatically wrong with it.

Anonymous

Constructions, Modals, Subjunctives

Mister Micawber

#377659 Mon, 11 Jun 07 12:01 AM

Subjunctives don't sound peculiar to me. but this one sounds grammatically wrong. 'So that' is merely a subordinate conjunction of purpose. Could you provide us with an online reference for using subjunctive mood this structure, Anon?

Mister Micawber

Modals, Subjunctives

Anonymous

#378442 Tue, 12 Jun 07 11:25 AM

Thank you for helping me out or trying to help me, Mr. M. As to your request for the online source of that kind, how about Wikipedia, a free encyclopedia? On its article on the Subjunctive Mood, under the sub-heading of "Construction using a modal verb," it gives four sentences:

I recommend that he (should) be taken away.

(May) the Lord bless you and keep you.

I put your dinner in the oven so that it (should) keep warm.

He wrote it in his diary so that he (might) remember.

Anonymous

Articles, Verbs, Constructions, Modals, Subjunctives, Modal verbs

Mister Micawber

#378796 Wed, 13 Jun 07 01:15 AM

I am indeed trying to help you, and I'll try once more and then be done. The last two examples that you quote fromWikipedia are not in the subjunctive. Subjunctive is a verb form. Both are merely adverbial clauses of purpose (the conjunction is 'so that'), and both must include the auxiliary verbs. 'Should' is called 'putative should', which is used to represent a neutral idea rather than a fact; 'might' indicates a tentative idea.

These are right (but not subjunctive):

I put your dinner in the oven so that it should keep warm.
He wrote it in his diary so that he might remember.

These are wrongly constructed:

(X) I put your dinner in the oven so that it keep warm.
(X) He wrote it in his diary so that he remember.

Please beware of Wikipedia-- it is created as a group effort by anonymous contributors who are not necessarily accredited. It contains many errors.

Mister Micawber

Verbs, Clauses, Auxiliaries, Modals, Subjunctives

Mister Micawber

#378934 Wed, 13 Jun 07 09:28 AM

With further consideration, I can only think that the author of the Wikipedia article on 'Subjunctive Mood' is considering the idea in its widest sense-- as 'any verb or structure that expresses a condition which is doubtful or not factual'. This is interesting for linguistic purposes, but is not of much help in working with grammar and with especially the few remaining subjunctive verb forms that remain to English.

For a shorter but more standard interpretation, have a look at this American Heritage article. Look for instance at how this article relates the association of subjunctive and modal: 'English has had a subjunctive mood since Old English times, but most of the functions of the old subjunctive have been taken over by auxiliary verbs like may and should, and the subjunctive survives only in very limited situations.'

Once more, the modals are not omittable from your latter two sentences-- the remaining verb is not in the subjunctive (it is actually an infinitive). It is the modal + infinitive (should keep, might remember) that together replace the subjunctive that presumably was once used in these kinds of sentences.

Mister Micawber

Articles, Grammar, Verbs, Auxiliaries, Modals, Subjunctives