milky  +  283413 Fri, 20 Oct 06 09:07 AM <He replied that as he didn't even talk about them in Indonesian, he had no idea of how to talk about them in English... Quite true, I thought. Why is it that learning English also means having to have the cultural values of English-speaking nations rammed down your throat? > It's a story I've heard many times. I also ask just how many BE speakers would know how to talk about such varied topics as are found in most ESL books. I wonder, have you ever read this article? The UK, EFLese Sub-Culture and Dialect by Mario Rinvolucri http://nti.educa.rcanaria.es/tea/TEAM1/24.pdf milky Joined on Thu, Jan 15 2004 Senior Member 3,149 Hume said that if we had perfect or complete descriptive knowledge of reality, we could not, by reasoning, derive a single valid "ought". Dialects, Articles, Learning English

	milky  +  283414 Fri, 20 Oct 06 09:09 AM <Learning English should be fun for all involved, not a battle to win hearts and minds... > That statement should be the alma mater of all language teachers. milky Learning English

	milky  +  283415 Fri, 20 Oct 06 09:12 AM <I'd like to add a brief comment to this spirited discussion, because I feel that some of the statements made are starting to take for granted that the only people teaching English are those in non-English-speaking lands and cultures. > I think you'll find that ESL and the word "intranational" have been used here. <For many of us, that is actually even part of our official job description. I don't feel that very many of us are likely to need the kinds of lectures on cultural sensitivity that I have read here, as it's our stock in trade. > OK, fair enough, but please remind me again of your advice to David, the topic starter. milky Teaching English

	milky  +  283416 Fri, 20 Oct 06 09:16 AM  Tam Sadek wrote: Of course Clive, there is a difference if you are teaching ESL in an English-speaking country and culture as opposed to EFL in a non-English-speaking country and culture. That goes without saying... Even in that situation, one should make an effort to become aware of the Englishes used in America and among the students in front of one. If one is only giving access to the standard form, one may be leaving the students unprepared to meet the realities of everyday communication in America, for example. milky

	milky  +  283417 Fri, 20 Oct 06 09:18 AM <I would have hoped that it went without saying, but I was becoming a little concerned about some of the rather sweeping generalizations that some people have made about teachers' failings.> My "generalistations" are based on 25 years in EFL, ESL and ESP as teacher and teacher-trainer. Believe me, there are far too many teachers out there who think that the only valid forms of English are the AE and BE forms. ------------------- "The UK EFL teachers’ ignorance of the descriptions of their learners’ languages and cultures is validated and encouraged by the Cambridge bread-ticket exams’ failure to require any serious study in this area by candidate teachers. This indicates to me that unawareness of the learners’ cultures and languages is a salient feature of the EFLese sub-culture. Could it be that it is rooted in an island superiority complex, strengthened by past imperialistic beliefs, and fed by an all-pervasive sense of belonging to the First World?" Rinvolucri milky Dates

	milky  +  283420 Fri, 20 Oct 06 09:21 AM <Which statement is more sympathetic to cultural diversity? (Which would a supporter of Jean-Marie le Pen be more inclined to utter, for instance?)> What a ridiculous question and dangerous association. You are too much, Mr P. My discussions with you end here. milky

	milky  +  283428 Fri, 20 Oct 06 09:48 AM Teachers, I advise you to teach about culture, and not teach culture. Others here may have a different approach. milky

	milky  +  283431 Fri, 20 Oct 06 10:03 AM Two quotes about teaching culture in language classrooms: It could be defined as "any information, knowledge or attitudes about the foreign culture which is evident during foreign language teaching" (Byram. 1989.)  the aim of which is "to help learners develop a more nuanced view of a country and society whose language they are learning" (Byram. 1997.)  To help, and not impose, is the key. milky

	MrPedantic  +  283686 Fri, 20 Oct 06 10:45 PM  Milky wrote: <Learning English should be fun for all involved, not a battle to win hearts and minds... > That statement should be the alma mater of all language teachers. "Paternoster", surely. MrP MrPedantic Joined on Tue, Oct 12 2004 Veteran Member 12,592 ...opella forensis / adducit febris... Learning English