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Raymond S. Wise    641521 Thu, 21 Sep 06 06:32 AM

"Why is "American English" any more pretentious than the name ... British English, Canadian English, South African English, and so forth)?"

"I think it's because no one ever refers to "Australian English" or the others you nominate but some people do ... Do it our way!" Americans often wonder why the rest of the world hates them. This is one small example."

The average American rarely has occasion to refer to his variety of English as "American English." When we go to junior high and high school, for example, we have "English classes," not "American English classes."
However, the term "American English" is useful when discussing varieties of English, as are such other terms as "Australian English" and "Canadian English," which is why we end up using such terms in Internet Usenet groups discussing English usage.
Linguists and lexicographers find such terms useful too, of course. The following is from the chart labeled "The Circle Of World English" on page 111 of The Cambridge Encyclopedia of The English Language by David Crystal. The chart is based upon a work by Tom McArthur.

I've left out all varieties of English in the chart for which the word "English" was not used in the name, and since others have on more than one occasion listed in the newsgroup alt.usage.english those varieties in the chart described with the words "Standard," Standard(izing)," or "Standardizing," in the name, I also have left those names out, although both standard and nonstandard varieties are listed among the following:
Antipodean English
Australian English
Aboriginal English
New Zealand English
Maori English
British English
BBC English
English English
Scottish English
Welsh English
Hiberno-English
Irish English
American English
Black English Vernacular
Indian English
Canadian English
Quebec English
Frenglish/franglais
Newfoundland English
Athabascan English
Inuit English
Ukrainian English
Caribbean English
South African English
Zimbabwean English
Zambian English
Tanzanian English
Ugandan English
Kenyan English
Cameroon English
Ghanaian English
Nigerian English
African English
Burmese English
Sri Lankan English
Nepalese English
Bangladeshi English
Pakistani English
Indian English
South Asian English
Chinese English
Japanese English
Philippines English
Malaysian English
Singapore English
Hong Kong English
East Asian English

Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
Molly Mockford    641523 Thu, 21 Sep 06 08:49 AM

At 04:49:23 on Thu, 21 Sep 2006, Tony Cooper
wrote in
(Email Removed):
"Americans often wonder why the rest of the world hates them. This is one small example."

"I've never wondered that. But, if I would, I would assume it's because we expect visitors to tip and to bathe regularly."

A culture which operates on an expectation of tipping is indeed a very bad thing. People should be paid a decent living wage in the first place, and if a tip is given it should be as a spontaneous recognition of particularly outstanding service - not as something which is expected in every case because the recipient can't survive economically without it.
Oh, and bathing? I haven't had a bath in I don't know how many years. It's a dirty way to attempt to wash, and wasteful of both my time and the world's resources. Last time I was in America, though, showers were readily available, just like here - so that was OK. I recommend that you try them for a change.
(I would trim the Newsgroups line if I had any idea which one IronFist is coming from. Myself, I'm posting "from" ucle.)
Molly Mockford
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)
Peter Duncanson    641534 Thu, 21 Sep 06 10:56 AM

On 20 Sep 2006 22:32:10 -0700, "Raymond S. Wise"
"I think it's because no one ever refers to "Australian ... of the world hates them. This is one small example."

"The average American rarely has occasion to refer to his variety of English as "American English." When we go to ... terms in Internet Usenet groups discussing English usage. Linguists and lexicographers find such terms useful too, of course."

From Chambers English Dictionary 7th ed.:
Chambers English Dictionary: An American View
Sidney I. Landau
author of Dictionaries: The Art and Craft of Lexicography

A strange thing has happened to the word 'English' in the last decade. It has become capable of being counted: one English, two Englishes, three Englishes-like peas or peppercorns. 'Let us now use the term "other Englishes",' writes Braj B. Kachru in Language in the USA, 'for those varieties of English which were spread and developed in areas other than the British Isles.'*
Once upon a time, the only recognized varieties of English were those found within Britain, and they were seldom accorded the status of English spoken in the few privileged public(1) schools and at the universities of Oxford and Cambridge. As the years passed, the Englishes of the United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, the Caribbean and Africa developed new lexical forms and distinctive ranges of pronunciation that further distanced their speech from any recognizable variety of English used in the British Isles.

These varieties of English have developed their own standard forms and can no longer be usefully identified as offshoots of the English of Britain. Of course, this is an old story in America; Noah Webster in the 19th century and H. L. Mencken in the 20th century made the case for viewing American English as a separate language.
The words we use to describe things count in establishing status. It is not mere variety that disposes people to care very much about what their languages are called; it most directly and materially affects how others perceive them. American English is not a mere variation of a true and proper English; it has its own standard forms derived from the distinctive character of the United States, its political history, its customs and conventions, and the values and character of its people.

This difference goes far deeper than the trivial dualities so often cited in discussions of US/British differences (gas/petrol; elevator/lift; mail/post, etc). Perhaps more fundamental are those differences that suggest different types of humor, different processes for forming metaphor and slang, and the particular path of deviations from each national standard to forms considered incorrect. Why do Americans tend to use 'lay' for 'lie' or 'like' for 'as' or fall into the trap of hypercorrection and say,' He told James and I not to be late'?

Chambers dictionaries have long reflected an interest in American English. Chambers's English Dictionary of 1872 included an eight-page appendix of Americanisms printed in small type, three columns to the page. The appendix includes such familiar American expressions as 'cotton to', 'enthuse', 'human' (for human being), 'like' (=as), 'lay' (= lie), 'potwalloper', 'sockdolager', and 'reckon' (to think, imagine, believe, conjecture).
It must be acknowledged, however, that Chambers has not consistently maintained a full record of English as it is used in the United States. The current edition, retitled Chambers English Dictionary and thus restoring the original 1872 title, marks the beginning of the process of enlarging coverage of American English, while at the same time recognizing that this is essentially a dictionary of British English. American readers will find Chambers especially valuable in guiding them from the American form of a word to the form used in Britain and elsewhere in the English-speaking world. Those who already own an American dictionary can profit from owning this dictionary in addition; they will find that it covers much ground that no American dictionary touches.
* Ferguson, Charles A. and Shirley Brice Heath, eds. Language in the USA (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press 1981), p. 26.

(1) In UK usage "Public School" = private school.
Then a few pages on in that dictionary:
Some other varieties of English
British English and American English are only two
of the many varieties of English which exist in the world today. Other forms of English exist
elsewhere, notably in Canada, South Africa. India
and Pakistan, Australia and New Zealand. These
differ to a greater or lesser extent from the English of Britain and America with regard to vocabulary.
grammar, pronunciation and sometimes spelling.
Many words or meanings of words unique to these
regional forms are noted in the dictionary, e.g.
baas, billabong, coloured, hartal, joey. Some
guidance on the pronunciation and spelling is
given in the following notes. The grammatical
differences are for the most part beyond the scope of a dictionary.

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.english.usage)
Tony Cooper  , 3 yr 63 days ago

"I've never wondered that. But, if I would, I would assume it's because we expect visitors to tip and to bathe regularly."

"A culture which operates on an expectation of tipping is indeed a very bad thing. People should be paid a ... outstanding service - not as something which is expected in every case because the recipient can't survive economically without it."

You can phrase it that way, but I would say that "People should be able to earn a decent living wage". A person who derives his/her income from salary plus tips can do so. The source of the money is not important.
"Oh, and bathing? I haven't had a bath in I don't know how many years."

"Bathe" does not mean immersing oneself in water.

Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL
ignotus    641550 Thu, 21 Sep 06 02:19 PM

"You can phrase it that way, but I would say that "People should be able to earn a decent living wage". A person who derives his/her income from salary plus tips can do so. The source of the money is not important."

Spoken like an exploitative employer. The wage of the waitress should not depend upon the number of people who come into the restaurant or the mood they are in -unless she is made a shareholder in the business and given a fair proportion of the takings.
"Oh, and bathing? I haven't had a bath in I don't know how many years."

""Bathe" does not mean immersing oneself in water."

From the American Heritage Dictionary:
v.intr.
1. To take a bath.
2. To go into the water for swimming or other recreation.
3. To become immersed in or as if in liquid.
4. To sunbathe.

v.tr.
1. To immerse in liquid; wet.
2. To wash in a liquid.
Stephen Calder    825068 Thu, 21 Sep 06 03:25 PM

""Bathe" does not mean immersing oneself in water."

Huh? That's exactly what it means to me.

Stephen
Lennox Head, Australia
Tony Cooper    641553 Thu, 21 Sep 06 03:32 PM

"You can phrase it that way, but I would say ... do so. The source of the money is not important."

"Spoken like an exploitative employer. The wage of the waitress should not depend upon the number of people who come ... they are in -unless she is made a shareholder in the business and given a fair proportion of the takings."

The wage of the waitress should depend on the agreement between the employer and the employee at hiring. Waiters/waitresses are not impressed into service. They voluntarily choose who they work for and agree to the terms offered. They are free to leave any employment that does not work out for them and to seek other jobs with other forms of compensation.
People who are from a society where tipping is not a custom don't like the practice, but there is little difference to the consumer if a meal costs them $10 plus a tip of $2, or $12 in an establishment where the owner pays entire wage. There is a difference to the employee since the compensation is fixed when the employer pays the entire wage, and the compensation can be higher when the consumer determines the compensation.
""Bathe" does not mean immersing oneself in water."

"From the American Heritage Dictionary: v.intr. 1. To take a bath. 2. To go into the water for swimming or ... as if in liquid. 4. To sunbathe. v.tr. 1. To immerse in liquid; wet. 2. To wash in a liquid."

Dictionaries provide alternate meanings to words to show that there is not one single meaning of a word. AH shows "2. To wash in a liquid" to show that "bathe" does not mean just to immerse in liquid. That allows "bathe" to mean either "to immerse in liquid" *or* "to shower".

A good example of this is "tip". You use one definition of "tip" that we don't in the US. "A good tip" is never a good garbage dump in the US. In Oz, though, you have to consider which use is being made of the word.
Look up "bathe" in Macquarie and see how they define the word. I can't because I don't subscribe. You should have one handy, though.

Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL
Tony Cooper    825070 Thu, 21 Sep 06 03:39 PM

""Bathe" does not mean immersing oneself in water."

"Huh? That's exactly what it means to me."

A person who bathes regularly is a person who washes his/her body regularly. It doesn't make a difference if the person suds-up from a helmet, a river, a wash basin, a bathtub, or in a shower stall.

Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL
Stephen Calder    825071 Thu, 21 Sep 06 03:45 PM

"Look up "bathe" in Macquarie and see how they define the word. I can't because I don't subscribe. You should have one handy, though."

Macquarie does have
2. to wet; wash
3. to moisten or suffuse with any liquid

but in practice to suggest someone should bathe does not immediately bring to mind an image of showering.
If you want to insist they be clean tell them to wash. That can mean shower or bathe.

Stephen
Lennox Head, Australia
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