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paco2004

#210167 Tue, 28 Mar 06 12:30 AM

Nona, why can you say all the phrases you don't know are incorrect English phrases?

"Arrive" is a movement meaning intransitive verb, and don’t you know that in your mother tongue, "is/are + past participle" was once frequently used as "present perfect" for such movement intransitive verbs?
(EX) "Here is arrived from the King of France a porte-manteau who brought the ratification under the great seal of the agreement and treaty"
(EX) "A vessel is arrived in the Thames from New South Wales after an extraordinarily short passage of less than five months".
These are sentences quoted in the most reliable dictionary of your mother tongue.

"Decisions are arrived at" and "newly arrived immigrants" are remnants of this "be present perfect".

paco

paco2004

Joined on Wed, Nov 17 2004

Senior Member (4,095)

In Japan today even dogs are learning how to bow-wow in English.

Verbs, Tenses, Present Perfect

paco2004

#210174 Tue, 28 Mar 06 01:15 AM

(EX) Nobody is yet arrived," said the master of the post-house in answer to his inquiries
(EX) Lord Cornwallis's courier, Mr. Broderick, is not yet arrived; so you are a little precipitate in thinking
(EX) "Monsieur Charles, whom I expect; is he arrived from England?" "Monseigneur, not yet."
(EX) The courier, who was despatched this morning to Levanto, is not yet returned, nor is Spinola arrived.
(EX) With master -- Mr. Rochester -- he is just arrived." "Indeed! and is Mrs. Fairfax with him?"
(EX) He is no sooner arrived at Paris than he has found a sincere friend.
(EX) This gentleman is this afternoon arrived from Denmark.
(EX) "Is Lord Buchan arrived?" I answered. "Yes." "Ah, then he proclaimed him king?' cried she"
(EX) "Is Captain Ross arrived?" asked Thaddeus of a servant, who, to his great joy, replied in the negative"

I'm wondering how many English people understand English sentences written by Broente sisters.

paco2004

Tenses, Negatives, Whom

paco2004

#210176 Tue, 28 Mar 06 01:34 AM

Nona The Brit wrote:
1) Newly-arrived - yes this would normally be hyphenated and is quite a common phrase.

Is it truely so? I found only one example of "newly-arrived immigrants" against some 200 examples of "newly arrived immigrants" used in NYTimes.com and AC.UK domains.

paco

paco2004

Tenses

paco2004

#210182 Tue, 28 Mar 06 02:23 AM

From "English Grammar in Familiar Lectures"
(authored by: Samuel Kirkham)
(published from Robert B. Collins, New York, 1828)

When the perfect participle of an intransitive verb is joined to the neuter verb "be", the combination is not a passive, but a perfective form; as,
        "He is gone"
        "The birds are flown"
        "The boy is grown"
        "My friend is arrived"

The following mode of construction is, in general, to be preferred.
       "He has gone"
       "The birds have flown"
       "The boy has grown"
       "My Friend has arrived"

paco

[PS]It's a wonder to me that some English people say the language spoken by their ancestors a few generations ago are all wrong or incorrect just on the reasons they are not speaking it or have not learned it. Please know some of us ESL learners want to know historical backgrounds of the collocations that cannot be explained by the current grammar systems and some of us are learning English to read classic novels written by great English writers of th past.

paco2004

Grammar, Verbs, Constructions, Tenses, English Grammar, Learning English

Goodman

#210187 Tue, 28 Mar 06 02:52 AM

I am not an academic scholar, nor am I an expert in English. But with my many years immersed in studying English, I think I can distinguish what looks and sounds right and what does not. Sometimes, we just have to be humbled to admit that we are not perfect. Take it anyway you want, what you have shown us is 18^th century English and what we are discussing is questions posted by learners of today. The first 3 examples are past participles used as adjectives. The 4^th one is an odd ball to me. You may still disagree which is fine.

         "He is gone"
        "The birds are flown"
        "The boy is grown"
        "My friend is arrived"

I don’t wish to make this a debate because I find it pointless. I am not smart enough to appreciate 18^th century literatures anyway.

Goodman

Joined on Mon, Nov 7 2005

Calif. USA

Senior Member (3,247)

The name says it all!

Tenses

paco2004

#210194 Tue, 28 Mar 06 03:00 AM

Goodman

I'm sorry I have no intention to argue with you, because I know we are on the different tracks. I'm rather interested in how queer or illogical idiomatic expressions in current English are formed, that sort of stuff seems far from your interest. One thing more, don't assume everyone here has the same purpose in learning English.

paco

paco2004

Tenses, Expressions, Learning English

Goodman

#210197 Tue, 28 Mar 06 03:09 AM

Just so that you know, the word "Queer" is a word of evil in the politically correct United States.

Oh! It's true, I made that assumption. If we are not here to learn and to share our English knowledge with learners, what exactly is the purpose of this forum then? .