HanJH  +  627459 Wed, 31 Dec 08 08:06 AM Hi, Here you can read an article of a newspaper about new year's plans (2009 plans) which the state owned companies reported to the president on December 30, 2008. The ministry said it was the first time that state-owned companies simultaneously presented their plans for the following year to the president and underscores the urgency of the situation. “This is also the first time that such plans have been designed even before a new year started,” said an official at the Finance Ministry. I think 'before a new year started' should be 'before a new year starts'. Am I wrong? Thank you in advance. HanJH Joined on Wed, Aug 6 2008 New Member 40 Be happy! Articles, Writing, Underscores

	Madhulk  +  627568 Wed, 31 Dec 08 10:42 AM  Well since this is an article then reported speech should be used. Hence it really should be Past Simple not Present Simple. In reported speech Present Simple goes into Past Simple in order to paraphrase the statement. Madhulk Joined on Mon, Dec 17 2007 Bulgaria Senior Member 3,177 THE MAN OF STEEL Articles, Present Tenses, Past Tenses, Past Simple, Present Simple, Speaking, Speeches

	CalifJim  +  627979 Wed, 31 Dec 08 08:33 PM HanJH “This is also the first time that such plans have been designed even before a new year started,” The auxiliary has is dropped because it has already been used (in the form have) previously in the sentence: This is ... first time ... such plans have been designed even before a new year (has) started. CJ CalifJim Joined on Mon, Aug 2 2004 California Veteran Member 22,389 "There are no facts, only interpretations" - Nietzsche Auxiliaries, Sentences

	CalifJim  +  627990 Wed, 31 Dec 08 08:59 PM HanJH “This is also the first time that such plans have been designed even before a new year started” Here's an alternate explanation. The reference is to any year in the past that may have started without such plans, so the past tense is appropriate. This is saying that in the past we never designed such plans before a new year started. CJ CalifJim Tenses, Past Tenses, References, Business, Career

	Verb_aTIM  +  629847 Sun, 04 Jan 09 02:47 AM HanJH “Hi, “This is also the first time that such plans have been designed even before a new year started,” said an official at the Finance Ministry. I think 'before a new year started' should be 'before a new year starts'. Am I wrong? ” Hi HanJH. Yes, you are wrong. Because the phrase "before a new year started", is dependent, that is, that its structure depends from the independent phrase, which commands the grammatical structure of the whole statement. "... such plans have been designed      -----independent phrase, also known as main clause. even before a new year started,”           ----dependent phrase.  (Most of dependent clauses are Subjunctive, 'cause they are not "real time"). Since, the main clause is written in Past Perfect Tense in the Passive Voice, writing the independent phrase in present tense, wouldn't match the main clause which commands the statement. TIM. Verb_aTIM Joined on Mon, Oct 27 2008 New Member 29 Pattern Seekers welcome. Tenses, Clauses, Present Tenses, Past Perfect, Subjunctives, Past Tenses, Writing

	Mister Micawber  +  629876 Sun, 04 Jan 09 05:03 AM . "This is also the first time that such plans have been designed even before a new year started,” said an official at the Finance Ministry. There is no past perfect verb form in that sentence, and the verb tenses of independent clauses do not command the tenses of their dependent clauses:  I will buy you a bicycle before you are ten.  I bought him a bicycle before Obama has been inaugurated. In addition to CJs options, you may consider that native speakers tend to regress the dependent verb even though the condition still obtains at the present moment-- but it remains a speaker's choice.  Our operational sentence is the one within quotation marks; since it is a direct quote, the 'said' clause is irrelevant.  These are all valid ways to make the statement with the same intent-- presuming that New Year's Day is still in the speaker's future (notice that the main verb 'have been started' is a present form): This is also the first time that such plans have been designed even before a new year started This is also the first time that such plans have been designed even before a new year has started This is also the first time that such plans have been designed even before a new year starts . Mister Micawber Joined on Wed, Aug 4 2004 Yokohama Veteran Member 30,780 'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master-- that's all.' Tenses, Clauses, Past Perfect, Punctuation, Past Tenses, Quotation Marks, Writing, Sentences