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tense in reported speech

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Kooyeen  #464526  Tue, 15 Jan 08 02:28 PM
 Heidita wrote:
If it's an exam, I woudl strongly advise against using is here, as in my experience it would surely be marked as a mistake.

If I heard a teacher say that using the present tense in reported speech was not ok and would be considered a mistake, I would definitely think they must not have a clue about English, wondering why they are even teaching it. It is not informal, it is not odd, it is not incorrect according to any rule.

He said John was sick.
He said John is sick.

That doesn't mean those two sentences are always interchangeable. A past tense ("was") gives you the fact as it was at that moment, and without context you can't know if anything has changed. A present tense ("is") gives you the fact as a fact that is relevant now, what the truth is now, or what you think is now the truth. So:

That morning in 1967, the doctor said my dad was very sick... <--- here "is" wouldn't make much sense.
I just met Jenny, and she told me her dad [was/is] sick... <--- here both are ok. Using "is" you would just be implying that you think he's still sick (you just met Jenny, so it's understandable), and presenting the fact so that it seems relevant now (you say what the fact is now, and not what the fact was when Jenny told you).

By the way, if you search this forum for reported speech, you'll find an awful lot of threads about this.
That's all, I'm tired... Smile [:)]

  
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Yankee  #464553  Tue, 15 Jan 08 03:03 PM
Any good grammar book will tell you that the simple present tense is frequently used and also perfectly acceptable in reported speech when you are reporting a general truth or a still current (still currently factual) situation.  In such cases, you can use either the simple past OR the simple present tense. 
  
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Yoong Liat  #464574  Tue, 15 Jan 08 03:37 PM
 Heidita wrote:
 Clive wrote:

Hi,

How long ago the original statement was made is very relevant. Was it said 30 years ago, or 30 seconds ago? eg

A: John is honest.

B, to his friend C: I didn't hear that. What did A say?

C: He said that John is honest.

This seems fine to me.

Best wishes, Clive

Hi Clive, I think the essence here is: Are we talking a bout an exam or "everyday talk"? If it's an exam, I woudl strongly advise against using is here, as in my experience it would surely be marked as a mistake.

cheersCool [H]

You're right. In an exam, it is advisable to use a verb in the past tense. However, in fact, if the marker is knowlegeable, he will not mark the answer as wrong.
  
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Hoa Thai  #464580  Tue, 15 Jan 08 03:52 PM
 Yoong Liat wrote:
You're right. In an exam, it is advisable to use a verb in the past tense. However, in fact, if the marker is knowlegeable, he will not mark the answer as wrong.

Hi Yoong Liat,

I agree. I have had a chance to discuss this issue with many English teachers, friends of mine. Once they see the explanation, many of them think hard on multiple-choice examinations that might cause confusion / raise debatable issues.
  
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Kooyeen  #464619  Tue, 15 Jan 08 06:36 PM
 Hoa Thai wrote:
 Yoong Liat wrote:
You're right. In an exam, it is advisable to use a verb in the past tense. However, in fact, if the marker is knowlegeable, he will not mark the answer as wrong.

Hi Yoong Liat,

I agree. I have had a chance to discuss this issue with many English teachers, friends of mine. Once they see the explanation, many of them think hard on multiple-choice examinations that might cause confusion / raise debatable issues.


Hi,
I just wanted to say that I don't agree at all. I really don't think there is anything wrong with using the present tense, so I think telling learners to avoid the present in reported speech on exams is quite misleading. They might think there's some weird grammar rule to remember.

What did she just say? Did she say her name is Kelly?

I wonder what kind of teacher would consider that incorrect on a TOEFL.
This is just my opinion. Smile [:)]

  
Grammar Geek  #464633  Tue, 15 Jan 08 07:00 PM

I completely agree with Kooyeen. His examples have been good.

  
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Yankee  #464643  Tue, 15 Jan 08 07:17 PM
 Hoa Thai wrote:
 Yoong Liat wrote:
You're right. In an exam, it is advisable to use a verb in the past tense. However, in fact, if the marker is knowlegeable, he will not mark the answer as wrong.

Hi Yoong Liat,

I agree. I have had a chance to discuss this issue with many English teachers, friends of mine. Once they see the explanation, many of them think hard on multiple-choice examinations that might cause confusion / raise debatable issues.
This is a problem in many multiple choice English tests, especially those written by non-native speakers of English.  Sorry if that comes across as arrogant, but in my many years of teaching English overseas, that is exactly what I saw.  Grammar tests and books written by non-native speakers are usually the ones that tend to over-simplify English grammar "rules" and ignore standard "exceptions".  They also completely misinterpret a grammar rule on occasion, and also sometimes provide rules that might have been valid 80 years ago but aren't valid today. 

  
Hoa Thai  #464729  Wed, 16 Jan 08 01:13 AM
Hi Amy,

I totally agree with you on your assessment. It has been very frustrating for me to deal with the problems that you’ve just talked about. In my country, in the distant past, teachers were trained well and I was fortunate enough to study under the great care of an excellent English teacher, who taught my friends and me many exceptions along with the rules.

Nowadays, because English becomes necessary in our society, textbooks have been either translated from old sources or written by many people with limited knowledge and experience. Errors and outdated information have been copied and multiplied. In addition to that, thousands of poor college students with shallow English background become home-tutors and they cram test taking techniques to the next generation. You don’t pass, you don’t go to college; you don’t go to college, you might never make it in life. The message is loud and clear!

With so much to absorb besides English, students end up study to pass rather than to learn. Teaching English nuances is appreciated by a few but creates confusion to the rest. And if teachers are not careful, they could be angrily criticized for helping flunking the kids!

Teaching the ‘half-truth’ is so dangerous, but what is the solution?

For me, I have yet to find a quick exit for our children. I hope I can find a condensed ESL textbook that answers to the kind of test questions that keep spreading the ‘half truth’. Am I dreaming!?


  
Yoong Liat  #464757  Wed, 16 Jan 08 03:55 AM

The teacher said, "The world is round."

In reported speech, it would be The teacher said that the world is round.

One of my English usage books says it can be reported as The teacher said that the world was round. ( was consistent with said in tense)

What do you think?  Other books give only the 'is' version.

  
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