Tense of noun clause embedded in subjunctive

1 2

Share on Facebook

paco2004

#160516 Sun, 20 Nov 05 12:14 AM

Hello Teachers

Surfing online, I came across a bit tough question from an English learner from Japan. The question is:

The passage below is from a retold version of "Edith's Book" by Edith Velmans.

I thought of turning myself in from time to time. I thought: "If I wanted to, I could go over to Gestapo headquarters and tell them who I really was. 'Edith van Hessen,' I would announce. 'I'm a Jew.' If I did so, I would be sent to Westerbork"

Why did the writer write "who really I was", not "who really I am"?

My thought is that Edith used intentionally "was" to suggest that in those days she really had a psyche that "being Edith van Hessen" was in a remote past. But the answerer answered that there is a possibility Edith might use "was" to make it agree to the past form of the finite modal (i.e., "could") in the subjunctive main frame. I would like to hear your opinions.

paco

paco2004

Joined on Wed, Nov 17 2004

Senior Member (4,095)

In Japan today even dogs are learning how to bow-wow in English.

Tenses, Clauses, Nouns, Modals, Subjunctives

Clive

#160526 Sun, 20 Nov 05 12:59 AM

Hi Paco,

I thought of turning myself in from time to time. I thought: "If I wanted to, I could go over to Gestapo headquarters and tell them who I really was. 'Edith van Hessen,' I would announce. 'I'm a Jew.' If I did so, I would be sent to Westerbork"

I'd say the 'was' suggests that Edith is thinking that she is not going to do this, it's just hypothetical. If it were a real possibility, she'd have said "If I want to, I can go over to Gestapo headquarters and tell them who I really am'."

I guess that means I agree with the answerer's answer.

Best wishes, Clive

Clive

Joined on Thu, Oct 28 2004

Canada

Veteran Member (22,573)

El tango argentino es un pensamiento triste que se puede bailar (The tango argentino is a sad thought which can be danced) Enrique Santos Discépolo

Tenses, Clauses, Nouns

paco2004

#160530 Sun, 20 Nov 05 01:14 AM

Hello Clive

Thanks for the quick reply. I understand "If I wanted to, I could go over to Gestapo headquarters and tell them .." is a second conditional. My question (and the questioner's) is why Edith uses "who I really was" instead of "who I really am". "I am Edith van Hessen" should be an eternal truth to her. Despite this, she uses "who I really was". I am wondering why she does so. I hope you understand what I mean.

paco

paco2004

Tenses, Clauses, Nouns, Conditionals

paco2004

#160533 Sun, 20 Nov 05 01:24 AM

OK, I'll give my question in another words.

     [1] I wish I could tell her I am a Japanese person.
     [2] I wish I could tell her I was a Japanese person.
           Which one sounds natural to you?

paco

paco2004

Tenses, Clauses, Nouns

Clive

#160536 Sun, 20 Nov 05 01:36 AM

Hi Paco,

I definitely prefer simplified questions!

[1] I wish I could tell her I am a Japanese person.

[2] I wish I could tell her I was a Japanese person.
Which one sounds natural to you?

However, I think you are muddying the waters a bit by introducing 'I wish ...'. How about this? Or does it not suit your thought?

1] Maybe I could tell her I am a Japanese person.

[2] Maybe I could tell her I was a Japanese person.
#1 sounds more natural to me. #2 still sounds like it's trying to be more hypothetical than #1 to me.

I don't think the 'eternal truth' aspect is as relevant as you think. For example, I might say 'Last year at the interview, I told him my name was Clive'.

Clive

Tenses, Clauses, Nouns, Interviews

paco2004

#160537 Sun, 20 Nov 05 01:44 AM

Hello Clive

So do you mean the choice of the tense in the clause embedded in a hypothetical statement has effects on the degree of the 'hypotheticality' of the hypothetical statement?

paco

paco2004

Tenses, Clauses, Nouns

Anonymous

#160541 Sun, 20 Nov 05 01:58 AM

Paco2004 wrote:
OK, I'll give my question in another words.

     [1] I wish I could tell her I am a Japanese person.
     [2] I wish I could tell her I was a Japanese person.
           Which one sounds natural to you?

paco

Number two sounds correct.

Paco, I believe the issue here is about when and when not to use the unreal past. If you look at your examples you will notice we use the present simple 'tell' after 'could'. That's because 'tell' is an action. When we refer to a hypothetical action or happening we use 'could'/'would' + the present simple.

I wish I could play the piano.

If only she would call me.

If only he would help more around the house.

However, when we refer to a hypothetical state we use the unreal past, eg:

I wish I wasn't Japanese.

If only I had a car.

If only I lived in Spain.

Anonymous

Tenses, Clauses, Nouns, Numbers, Present Simple

Jussive

#160543 Sun, 20 Nov 05 02:20 AM

Paco, I'm not sure I understand what specific problem you are having here. You do realise that in hypothetical sentences we use the present simple after 'could'/'would' when referring to an action or happening, whereas, we use the non-past when referring to a state, don't you?

I wish I could help her. (action/happening)

I wish you would tell her. (action/happening)

I wish I wasn't Japanese. (state)

I wish you lived here. (state)

I wish you could tell [action/happening] her I was [state] Japanese.

In this last sentence, though, it might technically be 'were' instead of 'was'.

Does that help, Paco?

Jussive

Joined on Sun, Sep 25 2005

Full Member (144)

Tenses, Clauses, Nouns, Present Simple

paco2004

#160545 Sun, 20 Nov 05 03:03 AM

Hello Jussive

Thanks. I'm afraid it might be rude of me to say that I know that kind of stuff very well. What I am asking is whether the verbal tense in the subjunctive statement would influence on the tense of the verb used in a clause embedded in that subjunctive statement. That is, I am asking a question like:

1. I wish she knew the Earth is a sphere.
2. I wish she knew the Earth was a sphere.
Which one sounds more natural to you?

I was taught we should say like #1. But I have now a feeling some native speakers might feel as if #2 were correct because of the verbal form "knew".

paco

paco2004

Verbs, Tenses, Clauses, Nouns, Subjunctives

1 2