Tense sequence

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Diamondrg

#174074 Sat, 24 Dec 05 06:05 PM

Is it normal to use present perfect in the subordinate clause after said? Which action happens first in this sentence? Said or have combed?

But the Times said that NSA technicians have combed through large volumes of phone and Internet traffic in search of patterns that might lead to terrorists.

here

Diamondrg

Joined on Fri, Dec 2 2005

Turkey

Contributing Member (1,043)

Tenses, Clauses, Present Perfect

CalifJim

#174084 Sat, 24 Dec 05 06:33 PM

The sentence is perfectly normal.

Think about it, and I believe you can answer your own question about what happened first!

The Times is a newspaper. If they "say" something it means they write it in the newspaper. They reported something.

Generally speaking, first the event happens, then newspapers report it, right? Smile [:)]

CalifJim

Joined on Mon, Aug 2 2004

California

Veteran Member (17,794)

"There are no facts, only interpretations" - Nietzsche

Tenses

Diamondrg

#174087 Sat, 24 Dec 05 06:51 PM

CalifJim wrote:
The sentence is perfectly normal.

Think about it, and I believe you can answer your own question about what happened first!

The Times is a newspaper. If they "say" something it means they write it in the newspaper. They reported something.

Generally speaking, first the event happens, then newspapers report it, right?

CJ

then why didn't they use "simple past" or "past perfect" instead of present perfect? Well then let me put it that way, what difference would it make if they used simple past or past perfect instead of present perfect?

One more thing if you are still there to answer (in fact I'm hesitating to ask Embarrassed [:$] ) : can "present perfect" express an action which happened before "simple past"?

Examples from New York Times:

- He said he has had several conversations with Nets

- He said he has crossed the country seven times

- He said he has met with Mr. Cannata about

- he said he has never become a city slicker

it is clear that it is in common use. but try to undestand me. why present perfect?

Diamondrg

Conversations, Tenses, Past Perfect, Simple Past, Present Perfect

CalifJim

#174231 Sun, 25 Dec 05 06:29 AM

why didn't they use "simple past" or "past perfect" instead of present perfect?

When reporting, they were keeping the sentence as close as possible to the original.
"He has met with Mr. X.," said Mary.
Mary said that he has met with Mr. X.

[What if] they used simple past or past perfect instead of present perfect?

Mary said that he met Mr. X.
Mary said that he had met Mr. X.

The differences would be minimal. These are reports of the two direct quotes below.

"He met Mr. X.," said Mary.
"He has met Mr. X.," said Mary.

Obviously, there are two ways to report the present perfect: either by keeping the present perfect or by changing it to past perfect.
But then there are two ways to report the present as well: either by keeping the present or by changing it to the past.

"He wants tickets to the movie," said Mary.
Mary said that he wants tickets to the movie.
Mary said that he wanted tickets to the movie.

CJ

CalifJim

Tenses, Past Perfect, Simple Past, Present Perfect

CalifJim

#174233 Sun, 25 Dec 05 06:38 AM

can "present perfect" express an action which happened before "simple past"?

Yes. Just a moment ago I remarked what a fine job Rob Marshall has done as director of Memoirs of a Geisha.

This is not a typical pattern, of course. I would normally say "had done" in that sentence. Still, these combinations are possible, and they are used.

For some reason, I usually get the impression with these patterns that the report is being made quite soon after it was heard. I just heard you say "I've been having trouble with the present perfect tense". I immediately tell someone else: "He said he has been having trouble with the present perfect tense". This sounds perfectly natural to the native speaker.

CJ

CalifJim

Tenses, Simple Past, Present Perfect

paco2004

#174247 Sun, 25 Dec 05 07:37 AM

I immediately tell someone else: "He said he has been having trouble with the present perfect tense". This sounds perfectly natural to the native speaker.

I think you may be right as long as spoken English is concerned. But I, as a learner of English, am hesitant to write such tense-reversed indirect speech sentences. I googled on CNN.com, NYTimes.com and BBC.co.uk for "He said he had heard/heard/has heard":
     CNN.com … He said he had heard/heard/has heard=25/93/3
     NYTimes.com … He said he had heard/heard/has heard=34/38/1
     BBC.co.uk … He said he had heard/heard/has heard=67/48/0

paco

paco2004