Tense - why wrong?

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Anonymous

#519487 Tue, 27 May 08 08:46 AM

Hi,

Please tell me why you think this is wrong. Does 'later' makes the past perfect good?

Yesterday we had eaten pizza but later ate sandwiches.

Anonymous

Tenses, Past Perfect

26TMNTJG2PG

#519495 Tue, 27 May 08 09:15 AM

The past perfect is not to be used for a definite point of time in the past (like yesterday).

The sentence can be revised as : Yesterday we had pizza and later sandwiches.

26TMNTJG2PG

Joined on Wed, Apr 23 2008

Full Member (266)

Tenses, Past Perfect

Grammar Geek

#519562 Tue, 27 May 08 01:44 PM

Your revision is good, but your absolute statement about not using past perfect for a time in the past is wrong.

Yesterday, we had just finished our lunch when the police stormed the house. They had mistaken our house for our neigbhors' and apologized, but not before they had scared the children quite badly.

(In that sample, the last "had" could be omitted - the word "before" tells you when it occurred.)

You can use the past perfect with a prior point in time - the key is that you want to show another action that happened after: Yesterday, we had already eaten pizza when Jane arrived with a plate of sandwhiches. With words like "just" or "already" the past perfect is needed. With words like "before" or "after" or "then," it's not needed at all.

Grammar Geek

Joined on Tue, Jan 10 2006

Pennsylvania, USA

Veteran Member (16,101)

Barbara, who answers in American English.

Tenses, Past Perfect, Sample

26TMNTJG2PG

#519958 Wed, 28 May 08 10:54 AM

Thank you Grammar Geek.

The past perfect is not to be used for a definite point of time in the past (like yesterday). Like it or not, I am afraid this is the rule.

I have come across a blog post titled Simple Past Tense against Past Perfect which hopefully can do the necessary explanations.

Thanks again!.

26TMNTJG2PG

Grammar, Tenses, Past Perfect, Simple Past, Past Tenses

Grammar Geek

#520002 Wed, 28 May 08 01:14 PM

I see, 26.

So "Yesterday we had just finished our lunch when we learned we had won the lottery" is incorrect for you?

Grammar Geek

Tenses

26TMNTJG2PG

#520426 Thu, 29 May 08 10:18 AM

To comply with the rule, we need to revise a little: "Yesterday we just finished our lunch when we learned we had won the lottery".

Thanks.

26TMNTJG2PG

Tenses

Clive

#520543 Thu, 29 May 08 02:54 PM

Hi,

Let's simplify the example a bit more.

Yesterday we had finished our lunch when Tom arrived. This is perfectly acceptable, and the Past Perfect makes the sequence of events clear.

Yesterday we finished our lunch when Tom arrived. This sounds like we finished our lunch after Tom arrived.

'Yesterday' here is not a point in time, but a period during which different events can occur.

Learning "rules" is helpful, but I think that one must beware of over-applying them in situations that they were not meant to describe. Smile

Best wishes, Clive

Clive

Joined on Thu, Oct 28 2004

Canada

Veteran Member (22,572)

El tango argentino es un pensamiento triste que se puede bailar (The tango argentino is a sad thought which can be danced) Enrique Santos Discépolo

Tenses, Past Perfect

Anonymous

#520559 Thu, 29 May 08 04:01 PM

Here is the 'blog' referred to:

StartFragment>

"The High Court had on July 1, 2003, found theboy, then aged 12, guilty of murdering the 11-year-old girl at her house inSentul, Kuala Lumpur, by stabbing her 20 times with a sharp object on May 30,2002" in the news proper on page N8. Both instances have seen the use ofthe past perfect tense instead of the simple past tense though a particularpast time has been mentioned in each. The past perfect or pluperfect tenseserves only to place a narration in the "more distant past," withoutdetermining its particular time or duration" as explained in.