The tenseless modals verbs of English

The OED's 'may/might' entry takes us back to Fortiter's thread:

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JTT said:

may and might. It may rain. It might rain. What’s the difference? ... might can also be used as a substitute for may to show diminished possibility. Thus, saying We might go to the movies means that the likelihood of going is somewhat less than if you say We may go to the movies. When used to express permission, might has a higher degree of politeness than may. Thus, Might I express my opinion conveys less insistence than May I express my opinion.


I ask again. What same verb might you be referring to? There is no verb common to may and might because they have different meanings, which is duly noted above.

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To which MrP would reply:

You might as well compare:

1. If that were true, he would be wearing a nasturtium in his buttonhole.
2. If that was true, why wasn't he wearing a nasturtium in his buttonhole?

If we were to apply the logic of the quote above, 'were' and 'was' would have to be classed as different verbs here, since the subjunctive 'were' in #1 shows 'diminished possibility', while the indicative 'was' in #2 shows fact.

Or do we redefine the subjunctive as inhouse modality?

MrP

CJ: But what I'm asking for is the word, the term, the terminology which describes this relationship -- supposing, in agreement with you, that "tense" is NOT the proper term for describing this relationship.

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JT: I think we're getting ahead of ourselves here Jim. "Tenseless modal auxiliaries" seems to describe them just fine. If something better comes along later, so be it. Collins CoBuild, a British dictionary, seems to have no problem listing can & could as separate entries, noting [from memory, so it's obviously a paraphrase] that

'some people believe could is the past tense form of can; we treat them as separate entries'.

Don't you find it more than a wee bit shocking that example sentences showing 'might' operating as the past tense of 'may' don't just leap out at you?

So far, there have been no offerings. I suggest we deal with the substantive aspects of these issues and invent names for them later.

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[link]

"Terminology is an obstacle in many grammars. ... "

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Mr Pedantic: 1. The emperor might ask the Praetorian Guard to secure the palace; but the Praetorian Guard had already deserted to the eagles of his rival. 2. 'I may come with you' => 'He said he might come with me.'

Thank you, Mr P. Why has it taken, what, 20 odd posts?

First to #2. Have you missed all the recent threads on reported speech, Sir?

A: I may come with you.

B: [to C] What did he say?

C: He said he might come with me.

"might come with me" does not illustrate a past action, Mr P. It's only just been spoken. Nobody has 'come with anyone'.

'might' signals only that the speech is reported. The only thing that is past tense/past time is "he said", appropriately illustrated by the past tense verb, 'said'.

He said, "I may come with you".

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"The emperor might ask the Praetorian Guard to secure the palace, ..."

Is this a quote or is this an example you've generated, Mr P?

Don't you find it more than a wee bit shocking that example sentences showing 'might' operating as the past tense of 'may' don't just leap out at you?

I'm not THAT easily shocked, for heaven's sake!

I suggest we deal with the substantive aspects of these issues and invent names for them later.

But more than half of your argument, if not all of it, revolves around the term "tense" -- or your aversion to it! If you think "tense" is the wrong word for the relationship, then tell us all what the right word is!
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"might come with me" does not illustrate a past action, Mr P. It's only just been spoken. Nobody has 'come with anyone'.

Phrasing your objection in terms of a past action is absurd, and I think you know it. The main verb is the (stative) modality "may" / "might", not "come" / "came". It is the possibility that is in the present or in the past, not the action envisioned. Consequently, this paraphrases as

It is possible that I will come with you.
He said that it was possible that he would come with me.

The sentences (like ALL those involving modal auxiliaries) have nothing to do with actions, only states.

________

I think we are all still puzzled by your analysis of examples reported speech.

He said, "I rode an elephant in Africa".
He said that he had ridden an elephant in Africa.

My understanding is that in the two sentences just above, you say that "had ridden" is not a different tense from "rode".

Another:

I enjoy listening to music.
He said he enjoyed listening to music.

My understanding is that in the two sentences just above, you say that "enjoyed" is not a different tense from "enjoy".

And your favorite:

I may need more time to finish.
He said he might need more time to finish.

My understanding is that in the two sentences just above, you say that "may" is not a different tense from "might".