The tenseless modals verbs of English

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just the truth  #74825  Fri, 18 Feb 05 10:07 AM
CJ:
It seems to say that these verbs can occur in any tense; therefore they do not have any tense.

JTT: That's correct, Jim, you're getting there. "CAN OCCUR" are the operative words. In modern English, modal auxiliary verbs are special types of verbs, tenseless verbs which carry modal meaning into sentences but they don't carry tense. That's what makes them tenseless. That's what allows them to operate in a tense/time situations.
  
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just the truth  #74828  Fri, 18 Feb 05 10:16 AM
That's the thing, MrP, *ENLs [unknown term]


Dear Moderators, if you need any help with jargon, please ask me.Wink [;)]
  
MrPedantic  #74852  Fri, 18 Feb 05 01:48 PM
It's not the first self-contradiction we've seen, CJ. I'm still marvelling over this one:

#1. 2003 - GWB: The Iraqis are going to hold elections in Iraq in January 2005.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr P: In #1, GWB situates the intention in the present.

JTT: No it doesn't Mr P. GWB's speech clearly situates the intention in the future, "January 2005" to be exact.

According to that logic, although at this very moment I'm planning to go home in 4 hours, I won't be planning to go home till 4 hours' time, when I do go home.

No wonder he's confused about the past.

MrP
  
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MrPedantic  #74864  Fri, 18 Feb 05 02:17 PM
JTT's original hypothesis was as follows:

The aim of this thread is to show that modals in modern English are tenseless auxiliaries. Since the traditional analysis has it that 'might' is the past tense of 'may', it just makes perfect sense to ask others to provide examples which show this relationship.

This statement is false if an example of 'might' acting as the past tense of 'may' can be found.

CJ and MrP have both provided several examples where 'might' acts as the past tense of 'may' in narrative or subordinate clauses.

JTT has responded by citing examples where 'might' is used as a more tentative version of 'may' in main clauses.

He has not demonstrated that 'might' in each of CJ's and MrP's examples is tenseless (i.e. can be replaced with 'may').

It seems the hypothesis is false.

(A more reasonable hypothesis might be that 'might' has two roles: sometimes independently modal; sometimes ordinarily preterite.)

MrP
  
CalifJim  #74894  Fri, 18 Feb 05 04:58 PM
Go figure!

In any case, Mr. P., I hope you get home on time!

CJ
  
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MrPedantic  #74904  Fri, 18 Feb 05 05:36 PM
Thanks, CJ. I just hope the trains aren't running to JTT time. Otherwise I'll end up somewhere around last Tuesday.

MrP




  
korin  #75088  Sat, 19 Feb 05 06:25 PM
You often stress that the relationship between modals
like can/could, will/would, may/might is other than
that of tense. Correct me, if I am mistaken or I have
missed some of your points, but what is the relationship
between the following pairs of modals?

1a. That's not the man I married, these days he will sit
in front of the telly for hours watching football.

1b. At the beginning of our relationship, he would write some romantic letters for me,
he would send me flowers every day.


2a. I'm afraid we have to hail a cab, the engine won't start.
2b. I got into the car but the engine wouldn't start so I had to hail a cab.

3a. I can swim the distance of 400m in 90 seconds!
3b. As a teenager I could swim the distance of 400m in 90 seconds!

As you can see, within the verb groups contaning modals, it is only the modals
that are marked for the category of tense. Hence, the relationship between
1a will - 1b would, 2a will not - 2b would not,etc. seems that of tense.

korin
  
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just the truth  #75211  Sun, 20 Feb 05 07:55 AM
1a. That's not the man I married, these days he will sit
in front of the telly for hours watching football.

1b. At the beginning of our relationship, he would write some romantic letters for me,
he would send me flowers every day.

3a. I can swim the distance of 400m in 90 seconds!
3b. As a teenager I could swim the distance of 400m in 90 seconds!


JTT: {Korin, please go to the "Can/Could & Will/Would" thread for a discussion on these examples. You are more than welcome to move them there if you'd like.}

Korin examples:
2a. I'm afraid we have to hail a cab, the engine won't start.
2b. I got into the car but the engine wouldn't start so I had to hail a cab.

As you can see, within the verb groups contaning modals, it is only the modals
that are marked for the category of tense. Hence, the relationship between
1a will - 1b would, 2a will not - 2b would not,etc. seems that of tense.


JTT: It does seems that way, doesn't it, Korin? But what of the millions upon millions of other sentences, like,

1."She might go." OR 2. "You should take an aspirin" OR 3. "They would do that" OR 4."I could go to the library".

Are these also "marked for the category of tense"? If so, and because all are marked by "past tense" modals, we have a contradiction that goes deep, for none of the meanings in 1,2,3 or 4, are past tense or past time.

Let's look more closely at your examples.

2a. I'm afraid we have to hail a cab, the engine won't start.
2b. I got into the car but the engine wouldn't start so I had to hail a cab.

For the sake of this argument, ie. this context, I'm going to assume that 2a and 2b refer to the same incident.

Number 2b is a report of the incident that occured in 2a. Since the backshifting that occurs in indirect reported speech doesn't necessarily convey a past meaning, this 'wouldn't' is not reflective of a past situation. It is merely reflective of a reporting situation. Take it a step further and this becomes clear.

--------------

Bill: [to Bonnie, his date] I'm afraid we have to hail a cab, the engine won't start.

Bonnie: Okay, let's get out of here. [takes a taxi and drops B at home]

Bill: [reporting to his father] I got into the car but the engine wouldn't start so I had to hail a cab.

Father: Let's go back and get the car.

Bill: I tell you Dad, it won't start.

---------------------

The condition of the car, as expressed by this one person, Bill, is that the car won't start. It is merely the modal emotive feeling of this person. It doesn't necessarily speak to the actual truth of the situation. It's merely Bill's opinion. Bill can, according to the REAL rules governing reported speech choose either a or a .

Bill: {tried the car; it won't start. Phones his father} Hi Dad, it's me. The car won't start. I triED everything and it won't start. {or "I've triED ..." for BrE speakers}

Now remember, Bill is away from the car, the attempts at starting it have finished, yet he can use "won't". This ability to shift back and forth between and points to this not being a REAL past tense.

That English allows a singular modal to operate in past tense/time, present tense/time and future tense/time situations clearly indicates that these modals are tenseless.
  
just the truth  #75218  Sun, 20 Feb 05 08:28 AM
Thanks, CJ. I just hope the trains aren't running to JTT time. Otherwise I'll end up somewhere around last Tuesday.

MrP

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Go figure!

In any case, Mr. P., I hope you get home on time!

CJ
  
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