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The infinitive and the past infinitive

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Latest post Fri, Mar 30 2007 5:51 AM by Clive. 18 replies.
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Cocoon  +  344641 Wed, 28 Mar 07 06:24 PM

could i ask you what do you think are the rules for the use of either the infinitive or the past infinitive.

eg. She was told not to dirty her dress.

but She was heard not to have told him the truth.

is the latter in the past inf. because she did not tell him the truth in the past (or simply because of the time sequence?)

and in the first case, not to dirty her dress is a  *supertemporal* statement with its timeless validity?

i am not able to find any comprehensive rules anywhere.

thank you for your help.
Cocoon
Joined on Fri, Mar 23 2007
Prague, Czech Republic
New Member 10
Doll  +  344704 Wed, 28 Mar 07 10:24 PM

She was told not to dirty her dress. Let's think that her mother tells her"Julia, don't dirty your dress."(By the way dirty dress is strange a bit Big Smile [:D])So, here it is indirect speech.She just was warned i any action didn't happen.  

  She was heard not to have told him the truth. Someone heard her when she told lie to him.Here there is a past action done by her: not telling him the truth   and this situation is stated in the above sentence as past infinitive.   

She was happy to be accepted here(In the past she felt very happy that they would accept her.Be careful!She still wasn't accepted.Action wasn't done)  

She was happy to have been accepted(In the past she was happy because she was accepted.Action was done)
Doll
Joined on Sat, Mar 10 2007
Senior Member 2,813
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Clive  +  344710 Wed, 28 Mar 07 10:36 PM

Hi,

could i ask you what do you think are the rules for the use of either the infinitive or the past infinitive.

eg. She was told not to dirty her dress.

but She was heard not to have told him the truth.

is the latter in the past inf. because she did not tell him the truth in the past (or simply because of the time sequence?)

and in the first case, not to dirty her dress is a  *supertemporal* statement with its timeless validity?

Let me try to answer using simpler examples.

'To cook' is the infinitive.

'To have cooked' is not the past infinitive, it is the perfect infinitive.

Consider -

Mary likes to cook dinner. In simple terms, this means that Mary enjoys the process of cooking.

Mary likes to have cooked dinner. Again in simple terms, this means that Mary is happy when she has cooked dinner. In other words, she is happy after the cooking is finished, perhaps when the dinner is sitting on the table. She is happy when she 'has the result of' cooking dinner.

After considering this, if you still have any questions, please write again.Smile [:)]

Best wishes, Clive
Clive
Joined on Thu, Oct 28 2004
Canada
Veteran Member 29,673
El tango argentino es un pensamiento triste que se puede bailar (The tango argentino is a sad thought which can be danced) Enrique Santos Discépolo
Cool Breeze  +  344711 Wed, 28 Mar 07 10:40 PM
Hi Cocoon

The present infinitive usually refers to the present time or to the future:
He is known to be rich.
They are known to like chocolate.
He must do it tomorrow.
Does he speak English?

It may also refer to a time when something happened in the past:
He was known to be rich.

The perfect infinitive (there is no past infintive!) usually refers to the past:
He is known to have written poems in his younger days.
I would have said something.
He must have done it yesterday.

Both infinitives can be used in the passive:
It should be done today.
It should have been done yesterday.

English wouldn't be English if there were no exceptions. In this sentence the perfect infinitive refers to the future:
He will have read that book by tomorrow afternoon.

Cheers
CB
Cool Breeze
Joined on Fri, Apr 7 2006
Senior Member 3,979
"I hope you'll all live to be 150 years old - and the last voice you hear is mine!" Frank Sinatra on stage in Oslo, Norway, 28 September 1991
Doll  +  344854 Thu, 29 Mar 07 09:39 AM
Thank you Clive and Cool Breeze till now I have been thaught that there is a past infinitive!!!!!!!!
Doll
Cocoon  +  344882 Thu, 29 Mar 07 11:30 AM

 Cool Breeze wrote:
Hi Cocoon

The present infinitive usually refers to the present time or to the future:
He is known to be rich.
They are known to like chocolate.
He must do it tomorrow.
Does he speak English?

yes,this is clear, but I mean if the first part is in the past. is perf. inf obligatory? 


The perfect infinitive (there is no past infintive!) usually refers to the past:
He is known to have written poems in his younger days. yes, this is the perf.inf
I would have said something.        this
He must have done it yesterday.   and this are not, these are just modals in the past - express modality



English wouldn't be English if there were no exceptions. In this sentence the perfect infinitive refers to the future:
He will have read that book by tomorrow afternoon.

this is not perfect infinitive!!!

this is future perfect tense

means that something will be completed until/at some time point in the future.

Cheers
CB
Cocoon
, ,
Cocoon  +  344886 Thu, 29 Mar 07 11:35 AM

it is clear to me that Mary likes to cook/to have cooked dinner differ

but my main interest is what are the rules if the first part of the sentence is in the past

e.g. Mary liked to have cooked dinner/ to cook dinner.

or the examples i gave.

thank you.
Cocoon
Cocoon  +  344887 Thu, 29 Mar 07 11:37 AM

She was happy to be accepted here(In the past she felt very happy that they would accept her.Be careful!She still wasn't accepted.Action wasn't done)    - are you sure the action wasn´t completed?
Cocoon
Doll  +  344888 Thu, 29 Mar 07 11:40 AM
I really don't know whether I am sure or not.I wrote this examples to you from the workshit I was given by my TEACHER two years ago and I wrote you what is written there.But I see now even there isn't something as past infinitiveSad [:(]
Doll
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