Raymond    904410 Mon, 10 May 04 11:45 AM Martin Ambuhl claims that the word hyphenation should be standardly pronounced as hy.phen.a.tion, with the syllabic divisons indicated. He further maintains that the syllabic division of this word as hy.phe.na.tion is only true for some speakers. Obviously, he does not know the maximum onsets principle, and probably knows nothing about ambisyllabicity. What do you think? Raymond Pronunciation, Hyphenation, Speaking, Punctuation

	Ross Howard    904413 Mon, 10 May 04 11:54 AM "Martin Ambuhl claims that the word hyphenation should be standardly pronounced as hy.phen.a.tion, with the syllabic divisons indicated. He further ... speakers. Obviously, he does not know the maximum onsets principle, and probably knows nothing about ambisyllabicity. What do you think?" "Syllable" like "word" means whatever we wants it to mean to best suit our prejudices. FWIW, I agree with you, Ray, but only because I'm influenced by the Spanish Real Academia's dictate that a syllable must begin with a con-so-nant, rather than a cons-on-ant. So, for me, hyphenation breaks down as 'hy-phe-,na-tion. However, only a maniac would set line breaks according to that, where sense must prevail over sound, so if I had to split it, it'd be "hyphen-ation". Ross Howard Ross Howard Pronunciation, Hyphenation, Speaking, Punctuation, Languages

	Jonathan Jordan    904424 Mon, 10 May 04 12:22 PM "Martin Ambuhl claims that the word hyphenation should be standardly pronounced as hy.phen.a.tion, with the syllabic divisons indicated. He further ... some speakers. Obviously, he does not know the maximum onsets principle, andprobably knows nothing about ambisyllabicity. What do you think?" The maximum onsets principle isn't universally accepted. See http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/wells/syllabif.htm which describes the syllibification principles used for the Longman Pronunciation Dictionary. In particular, I think Wells's principles would put the /f/ in "hyphenation" in the first syllable, as that is more strongly stressed than the second. Similarly I think the /n/ would go in the second syllable, by the morpheme boundary condition. (But if the morpheme boundary is ignored, which it might be, then the /n/ goes in the third syllable because of stress.) Jonathan Jonathan Jordan Pronunciation, Hyphenation, Speaking, Punctuation, Morphemes

	Raymond    904522 Mon, 10 May 04 03:03 PM ""Syllable" like "word" means whatever we wants it to mean to best suit our prejudices. FWIW, I agree ... breaks according to that, where sense must prevail over sound, so if I had to split it, it'd be "hyphen-ation"." Thank you for your reply, Ross. But my question is about how people pronounce that word, although the question grew out of my previous posting about how to break lines. So, now I only care about the way the word hyphenation is pronounced, not about how it should be typographically split at the end of a line. As you have rightly pointed out, we do not normally pronounce 'hyphenation' with the syllabic divisions promoted by Martin Ambuhl. But the way the word should be pronounced is probably not due to the influence of the Spanish Real Academia's dictate, but due to some universal phonotactic constraints imposed upon human languages. One constraint, i.e. the maximum onsets principle states that the maximal number of consonants preceding the nucleus (a vowel or vocalic element) should serve as the onset of the syllable. And each language sets its own restrictions on what constitutes a legitimate syllable onset. For example, the word 'koknee' would be syllabified as kok.nee in English, but ko.knee in German. This is because English does not allow kn- as an onset, but German does. Within such a limit, we look for the greatest number of possible pre-nucleus consonants as an onset. Raymond Vowels, Pronunciation, Consonants, Hyphenation, Countries, United Kingdom, Great Britain, Speaking, Writing, Punctuation, Languages, Numbers

	Mike Lyle    904792 Mon, 10 May 04 07:19 PM I go for the morpheme boundary. But let's remember that Fowler pointed out that 'hyphening' was a better word anyhow. Mike. Mike Lyle Pronunciation, Speaking, Morphemes

	Cece    904867 Mon, 10 May 04 08:39 PM Who is Wells? I was taught that a long vowel could end a syllable. According to AHD, the word is divided thusly: hy-phen-a-tion. My pronunciation? ,haI f(@)'neI S@n Cece Cece Vowels, Pronunciation, Speaking

	Peter Moylan    905121 Tue, 11 May 04 12:10 AM Raymond infrared: "Martin Ambuhl claims that the word hyphenation should be standardly pronounced as hy.phen.a.tion, with the syllabic divisons indicated. He further maintains that the syllabic division of this word as hy.phe.na.tion is only true for some speakers." I've been sitting here trying to work out my pronunciation, and I'm pretty sure that I break it as hy.phen.na.tion. In other words, I hold the 'n' so that it belongs to two syllables. If I try to pronounce it as hy.phe.na.tion, the result sounds as if I'm saying "high for nation". Not the same thing at all. Peter Moylan peter at ee dot newcastle dot edu dot au http://eepjm.newcastle.edu.au (OS/2 and eCS information and software) Peter Moylan Pronunciation, Hyphenation, Speaking, Punctuation

	Raymond    905268 Tue, 11 May 04 02:30 AM "The maximum onsets principle isn't universally accepted. See http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/wells/syllabif.htm which describes the syllibification principles used for the Longman Pronunciation Dictionary." Thank you for your reply,Jonathan. But I still have some questions. Where does the article level its criticism against the maximum onsets principle? The artlce has so long many phonetic symbols missing , and is so long that it is hard to locate its arguments against the maximum onsets principle. I would appreciate it if you would show the arguments here. I also note this article was written around 1990. But one of my textbooks, English phonetics and phonology by Peter Roach, one the editors of the DJ Pronunciating Dictionary, does promote the maximum onsets principle in 2000. "In particular, I think Wells's principles would put the /f/ in "hyphenation" in the first syllable, as that is more ... morpheme boundary is ignored, which it might be, then the /n/ goes in the third syllable because of stress.) Jonathan" If /n/ goes to the second syllable, then you would probably pronounce the word as hyphen-ation, with a division between the first morpheme and the second. But is that you actaully pronounce the word? I am very eager to know. Do you likewise pronounce hyphen-ing in the way so indicated? Perhaps morphemic boundaries are not always well correlated with phonetic ones. Ray Raymond Articles, Phonetics, Pronunciation, Countries, United Kingdom, Great Britain, Speaking, Languages, Morphemes

	Reinhold Rey Aman    905373 Tue, 11 May 04 07:05 AM "I've been sitting here trying to work out my pronunciation, and I'm pretty sure that I break it as hy.phen.na.tion. ... pronounce it as hy.phe.na.tion, the result sounds as if I'm saying "high for nation". Not the same thing at all." Jumping in at midstream and mid-arguments: As one who typesets many languages and thus has to hyphenate words, I consider the English system of hyphenation inconsistent, exasperating, and barbaric. English hyphenation is based on *pronunciation*, not on *morphology* as in other languages, and thus brutally tears apart morphemes, if the "wrong" syllable is stressed. Below, I capitalized the STRESSED syllables. "Bi-OG-ra-phy" (from: bios + graphein) tears apart the morpheme into + . However, "bi-o-GRAPH-i-cal" is hyphenated sanely. Similarly, "ge-OG-ra-phy" (from: ge + graphein) versus "ge-o-GRAPH-ic" and "to-POG-ra-phy" (from: topos + graphein) versus "topo-GRAPH-ic." More insanities: "ge-OM-e-try" (from: ge + metron) tears apart into + , but "ge-o-MET-ric" keeps the morpheme intact. Inconsistent: "AT-mos-phere" (from: atmos + sphaera) tears apart into + , as does the differently stressed . Yet "BI-o-sphere" keeps the morpheme intact. Go figure. Also, words and names from other languages are frequent victims of wacky English hyphenation. Reinhold (Rey) Aman Reinhold Rey Aman Pronunciation, Hyphenation, Countries, United Kingdom, Great Britain, Speaking, Punctuation, Languages, Morphemes