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The reform of linguistics

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Forbes  #224852  Fri, 12 May 06 01:24 PM

 Anonymous wrote:
 Forbes wrote:
The Phoenecian alphabet was in use for 1000 years and found to be adequate for writing Phoenecian; indeed the same system is still used today to write Arabic and Hebrew, although they do show some vowels and have the means (not in regular use) to show all vowels.
I am under the impression that the system for writing vowels in Hebrew was artificially constructed as a learning tool, and for this reason it is not in common use.

I believe you are correct.

 Anonymous wrote:
The system works because they are all Semitic languages in which the important lexical information is carried by the consonants.

I do not think that this is correct. The vowels convey critical information. However, the organization of words is such that a given consonant construction makes the vowel construction apparent, such that it typically need not be marked explicityly. There are exceptions, such that a couple of consonants are used to mark the required vowels.

Obviously vowels are important. What I am saying is that the vowels are readily supplied by a (knowledgeable) reader, and I think that is what you are saying.

The Arabic alphabet consists of 28 consonants. Of theses, alif, which has no fixed value, is also used to represent /a:/; ya can represent both /j/ and /i:/; waw can represent both /w/ and /u:/.* The short vowels are not represented, except when writing the Quran and texts intended for beginners. It is only possible to read Arabic when you know the grammar (whether you have learned it or know it intuitively); if you do not know the language you cannot supply the missing vowels. Although the parallel is not exact, it is rather like English written in Pitman's shorthand. This means that the system presents difficulties for learners, but it should be remembered that English orthography is also difficult to master, though for different reasons.

*It is interesting to note a parallel with Latin where /i/ and /j/ were both represented by <i> and /u/ and /w/ were both represented by <u>.

  
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Anonymous  #224933  Fri, 12 May 06 08:29 PM
 Forbes wrote:
I am at something of a disadvantage as I do not know Chinese, only what I have read about it. I always used to read that Chinese was monosyllabic, but apparently this is a misconception.
The misconception here is in what is meant by the notion of it being monosyllabic. I consider that Chinese is monosyllabic, in that each word is 1 syllable.

I recently had occasion to discuss the question of tones with a linguistics expert and he said that I needed to get away from the idea that tones were that important in distinguishing meaning in Chinese, although they naturally play a part; context is equally important.

I am not sure of your point. Tone is extremely important in distinguishing meaning. For example, if you were speak a sentence in Chinese with the wrong tone, it is very likely that no one would understand you. Since you state that you do not know Chinese, then your tones would most likely be extremely inappropriate, such that your words would be devoid of any meaning in most contexts. You state that context is important. Why would that be? It is because even given the tonal differences, there can be a large number of possible meanings of a sound voiced with the same tone. Context is required to determine the specific meaning.

Chinese morphology is strictly bound to a set number of syllables with a fairly rigid construction which are the morphemes, the smallest building blocks, of the language. Some of these single-syllable morphemes can stand alone as individual words, but contrary to what is often claimed, Chinese is not a monosyllabic language. Most words in the modern Chinese spoken varieties are in fact multisyllabic, consisting of more than one morpheme, usually two, but there can be three or more.

I can accept this as valid if we come to an agreement that we shall deviate from the commonly accepted meaning of what a word is. Chinese words are all monosyllablic. No words are polysyllabic. If I were to say something like "I like mountain climbing," and if you were to claim  that "mountain climbing" is a single word and is not two words, then I would then accept your belief that Chinese is not monosyllabic. However, I do not consider the fact that Chinese strings multiple words together to form more complex connotations as evidence that these strings of words are themselves single words.

The problem of homonyms also exists but is less severe in southern Chinese varieties like Cantonese and Taiwanese
If you consider tonal differences. Otherwise, there are large numbers of words with the same sound, if tonal distinctions are ignored.


There are a few morphemes in Chinese, many of them loanwords, that consist of more than one syllable. These words cannot be further divided into single-syllable meaningful units, however in writing each syllable is still written as separate . One example is the word for "spider," zhīzhū, which is written as 蜘蛛.
Whoever wrote this is entitiled to his opinion, but I do not at all agree with it. I do not know why you would either, given that you admit that you do not know Chinese.

It should also be noted that the phonology of a language has no bearing on its richness or subtlety or its abilty to express ideas.
I disagree completely, It has great bearing. I agree that this bearing is not meaningful in attempting to demonstrate poverty or richness compared to other languages. Still, Chinese subtlety is very different from English subtlety.
I am not quite clear how you disagree with me.
I think that the phonology of a language is intimately bound in grammatical distinctions, and that grammatical distinctions exert a major imfluence on how nature is perceived and manipulated in the mind.

  
Forbes  #225096  Sat, 13 May 06 12:09 PM

As I have said, I do not know Chinese and am therefore not in a position to take the argument much further forward. However, the following six websites insist that Modern Chinese is not monosyllabic:

http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/dept/chinese/aspect/monosyllabicity.html

http://learning_chinese.blogspot.com/

http://www.pinyin.info/readings/texts/east_asian_languages.html

http://www.cjvlang.com/Writing/writsys/ciandzi.html

http://wwli.com/languages/zhongwen/lesson01/writing.html

http://www.askasia.org/teachers/essays/essay.php?no=32

I think that the idea that Chinese is monosyallabic is motivated by the writing system. People who think about language as a phenomenon are typically literate. Anyone who reads English has an idea of what a "word" is and for ordinary purposes the concept is quite satsifactory. However, as soon as you want to talk about language the concept is found to be unsatisfactory and so linguists talk about morphemes. Even the idea of a morpheme is found not to be that useful when describing incorporating languages. There is an argument that the theory of phonemes only developed because it arose among scholars who use alphabetic scripts. People who use syallabic scripts tend to think of the smallest sound unit as a syllable, which when you think of it is more intuitive as few words that stand alone are purely consonantal.

When I said:

 "I recently had occasion to discuss the question of tones with a linguistics expert and he said that I needed to get away from the idea that tones were that important in distinguishing meaning in Chinese, although they naturally play a part; context is equally important."

I did not mean that if you use the wrong tone there will be no confusion. Rather I was saying that if a given homophone (ignoring the tones) has, say, twenty different meanings, the tones are only going to be partly useful in distinguishing different meanings. If a given homophone with a high tone has seven different meanings, then context has to play a part in deciding which meaning is meant. This may not arise in writing if the different homophones are represented by different signs. In spoken English there is no possibilty of confusing sighted, sited and cited, as the context makes the meaning clear. Thus:

I sighted a ship.

The house is sited on a hill.

He cited a passage from Shakespeare.

  
Forbes  #225101  Sat, 13 May 06 12:42 PM

 Anonymous wrote:
I think that the phonology of a language is intimately bound in grammatical distinctions, and that grammatical distinctions exert a major imfluence on how nature is perceived and manipulated in the mind.

I am happy to concede that every language is a different way of describing the world. However, I cannot see how the sounds of a language have any bearing on the matter. If you were to take a language and replace all its phonemes with a completely different set of phonemes, this would not not change its morphology or syntax.

  
Anonymous  #225313  Sun, 14 May 06 03:51 PM
 Forbes wrote:
As I have said, I do not know Chinese and am therefore not in a position to take the argument much further forward. However, the following six websites insist that Modern Chinese is not monosyllabic:
You certainly seem to have done your homework. Have you encountered no sites that you respect that consider Chinese to be monosyllabic?

I think that the idea that Chinese is monosyallabic is motivated by the writing system.
I think that the idea that Chinese is polysyllabic is motivated by an attempt to impose English grammar on Chinese, thereby ignoring that which is Chinese. Do you think that Chinese could just as easily have chosen to use an alphabet, or that they could just as easily adopt one now? Do you think that Chinese is written using ideographs merely by accident of history? Do you think that Chinese is not based on ideographs?


Anyone who reads English has an idea of what a "word" is and for ordinary purposes the concept is quite satsifactory.
Unfortunately, when people consider a language as different as Chinese, they often try to force Chinese into identical grammatical categories.

There is an argument that the theory of phonemes only developed because it arose among scholars who use alphabetic scripts.
I think that it would be difficlt to expect that the idea of morphemes was developed by people who speak only Chinese. Don't you?

When I said:

 "I recently had occasion to discuss the question of tones with a linguistics expert and he said that I needed to get away from the idea that tones were that important in distinguishing meaning in Chinese, although they naturally play a part; context is equally important."

I did not mean that if you use the wrong tone there will be no confusion. Rather I was saying that if a given homophone (ignoring the tones) has, say, twenty different meanings, the tones are only going to be partly useful in distinguishing different meanings. If a given homophone with a high tone has seven different meanings, then context has to play a part in deciding which meaning is meant. This may not arise in writing if the different homophones are represented by different signs. In spoken English there is no possibilty of confusing sighted, sited and cited, as the context makes the meaning clear.

Obviously. We are now back to my claim about the paucity of the phoneme set. English has multisyllabic words. Chinese does not. Therefore, Chinese phonemes are insufficient in spoken speech. The fewer the phonemes in a given Chinese language, the greater the number of tones that developed to assist in providing distinctions.

We have words such as "starfish" and "catfish" in English. These are considered to be single words, although they are each composed of two different  words. In Chinese, all so-called polysyllabic words, combine words in this manner. This does not make them single words in Chinese. I do not accept the arguments by your citations, for example De Francis, that because the word cat alone and not followed by the word fish will lead to misunderstanding, it is therefore somehow acceptable to claim that the combination "star fish" constitutes a single word in Chinese.

  
Anonymous  #225345  Sun, 14 May 06 06:27 PM
 Forbes wrote:

 Anonymous wrote:
I think that the phonology of a language is intimately bound in grammatical distinctions, and that grammatical distinctions exert a major imfluence on how nature is perceived and manipulated in the mind.

I am happy to concede that every language is a different way of describing the world. However, I cannot see how the sounds of a language have any bearing on the matter. If you were to take a language and replace all its phonemes with a completely different set of phonemes, this would not not change its morphology or syntax.



You make this claim as though you are making a serious argument. I contend that this is not serious, however. I claim that 1) it is not possible to test this theory, and 2) you have no basis for claiming that something that could never be tested would yield a result that you speculate would be the case. On what basis do you make this conjecture? Furthermore, are you claiming that if the entire phoneme set of a langauge were changed that the morphology and syntax could possibly remain unaffected? Also, if the entire phoneme set of a language were changed, do you think that you would be dealing with the same langauge?

Do you think that the evolution of the phoneme set of the various languages of the world proceeded in parallel to, yet in a completely unrelated and isolated manner to, the syntax and morphology of the languages? I do not. I think that the same forces that shaped the evolution of syntax shaped the evolution of the phonemes.
  
Forbes  #225770  Tue, 16 May 06 02:04 AM

Have you encountered no sites that you respect that consider Chinese to be monosyllabic?

Googled for Chinese and polysyllabic!

I think that the idea that Chinese is polysyllabic is motivated by an attempt to impose English grammar on Chinese, thereby ignoring that which is Chinese. Do you think that Chinese could just as easily have chosen to use an alphabet, or that they could just as easily adopt one now? Do you think that Chinese is written using ideographs merely by accident of history? Do you think that Chinese is not based on ideographs?

All the books I read years ago insisted that Chinese was monosyllabic. It is only comparatively recently that I have encountered the idea that this is not the case. I think that when Westerners first encountered Chinese they found it so different that they immediately realised that they could not explain it in terms of any Indo-European grammar, or if they tried I expect they soon gave up. As for today, even a first year linguistics student would not attempt to explain Chinese other than in its own terms. Since linguists do not try to explain other aspects of Chinese using "traditional" grammatical concepts it is difficult to see why they would single out the issue of whether the language is monosyllabic and somehow deliberately come to a perverse conclusion.

Assume there is language where the word for "insect" is "pi". We can definitely say that it is a monosyllabic word. If the word is "pi/to" (I write it with the slash to avoid having to write either "pi to" or "pito") then we need to look at the elements. If we find that "pi" means "six" and "to" means "leg", then we can argue that in that language the idea of "insect" is represented by two words, though some may prefer to categorise it as a compound word. However, if we find that neither "pi" nor "to" exist as separate words we are forced to conclude that "pi/to" is a disyllabic word and that the language cannot be monosyllabic. We may also wish to come to that conclusion if we find there is a word "pi" meaning "water jug" and a word "to" meaning "judgment", since we would be hard pressed to argue that the two elements were in any way connected with the idea of an insect, just as in English we would not argue that "insect" was a compound of the words "in" and "sect". The question is therefore: if such an exercise is carried out with Chinese, what is the result? I cannot carry out the exercise myself as I do not know Chinese. However, if I am to believe what I read, others who do know Chinese have conducted the exercise and come to the conclusion that it is not monosyllabic.

I don't think I want to get into a discussion about Chinese writing.


Unfortunately, when people consider a language as different as Chinese, they often try to force Chinese into identical grammatical categories.

See my comments above.

I think that it would be difficlt to expect that the idea of morphemes was developed by people who speak only Chinese. Don't you?

Well, someone who speaks a language which he believes to be monosyllabic would not find the idea concept useful.

Obviously. We are now back to my claim about the paucity of the phoneme set. English has multisyllabic words. Chinese does not. Therefore, Chinese phonemes are insufficient in spoken speech. The fewer the phonemes in a given Chinese language, the greater the number of tones that developed to assist in providing distinctions.

We obviously disagree about whether or not Chinese is monosyllabic. I am unable, through lack of knowledge, to dispute what you say about the correlation between the number of phonemes and the number of tones in any given Chinese language. However, Vietnamese has more phonemes than Mandarin and also more tones, so whilst what you say  (i.e. the lower the number of phonemes the higher the number of tones)  may be true for Chinese languages, it is certainly not true when Mandarin is compared to Vietnamese.

You seem to be ignoring the point I made about context playing its part in determining the meaning of a word.

We have words such as "starfish" and "catfish" in English. These are considered to be single words, although they are each composed of two different  words. In Chinese, all so-called polysyllabic words, combine words in this manner. This does not make them single words in Chinese. I do not accept the arguments by your citations, for example De Francis, that because the word cat alone and not followed by the word fish will lead to misunderstanding, it is therefore somehow acceptable to claim that the combination "star fish" constitutes a single word in Chinese.

You have illustrated admirably the problem in using the word "word". This is why linguists prefer to use "morpheme". The "ordinary" reader will consider "starfish" to be one word simply because it is written as one word. Linguists, ignoring the written convention, will simply say that it is two morphemes. Just as the way English is written leads to the belief that "starfish" is "one word", so the reader of Chinese thinks of every sign as representing a word.

  
Forbes  #225884  Tue, 16 May 06 03:44 PM

Imagine a language in which:

“The man hit the table with a stick” is

“Copoloteko tipadela tisadure asutariki bu.”

In this sentence

co = a classifier indicating that we are talking about something animate

polo = man

te = a nominative case marker

ko = the speaker wishes to emphasise the word “man”

ti = a classifier indicating that we are talking about something inanimate

pade = table

la = accusative marker

ti = as above

sadu = stick

re = an instrumental case marker

a = a prefix indicating that the event took place in the recent past

suta = hit

ri = a suffix indicating that the subject of the sentence is animate

ki = a suffix indicating that the object of the sentence is inanimate

bu = a particle showing respect to the person addressed

If we substitute a completely different set of phonemes throughout, so that for example “copoloteko” becomes “dasazaviwu”, the morphology and syntax have not been changed. We can go a step further and make all the syllables closed so that we have “dansaszarvitwun”, or again go further still and introduce some consonant clusters to produce “dranspaszarvlistwun”. In each case the phonology of the language is different, but the morphology and syntax are identical.

Now of course changes in the phonology of a language go hand in hand with changes in its morphology: a classic case is where case endings for nouns are weakened and eventually dropped. But what you seem to be saying, and please correct me if I am wrong, is that you can predict the morphology and syntax of a language from its phonology. In particular, you seem to be suggesting that if a language has a small inventory of phonemes and a simple phonology (that is all syllables must be of the form V or CV or CVC where the final C is restricted to, say, /m/ /n/ and /ŋ/) the language must be analytic, isolating, monosyllabic and have significant tonality.

If we take Spanish, it is a language with a comparatively simple phonology. It has only five vowels and the total number of phonemes is about the same as in Mandarin Chinese. The range of consonant clusters is restricted to initial C1C2 where C2 has to be /l/ or /r/. Syllables may only end in a vowel or /ð/, /l/, /n/, /r/, /s/ and /θ/ and even then the /ð/, /r/, and /s/ are weak and even disappear in some speakers/varieties with /θ/ becoming /s/. Whilst Spanish is less synthetic than Latin, from which it derives, it is not isolating, certainly not monosyllabic and does not have significant tonality, at least not at the lexical level, though the difference between statements and questions is often marked only by intonation. Thus we have Spanish and Chinese with broadly similar phonologies (except of course that the phoneme inventories are different) but which are otherwise completely different from each other. It may also be noted that whilst French has a far greater number of phonemes and a more complex phonology than Spanish, Spanish and French have a similar morphology and syntax (at least compared to other non-Romance languages).

Unless I have completely misunderstood what you are saying, what seems to be the sum of your argument is that simple phonology equals simple language equals simple mind, which is a contention I cannot possibly accept. 

  
Anonymous  #226340  Thu, 18 May 06 04:34 AM
I am not infatuated with the software that runs this site. Often I cannot post a message. I wrote a lengthy response to this, and then suddently everything disappeared. I think that this second writup will be shorter.

 Forbes wrote:
Imagine a language in which:

“The man hit the table with a stick” is

“Copoloteko tipadela tisadure asutariki bu.”

If we substitute a completely different set of phonemes throughout, so that for example “copoloteko” becomes “dasazaviwu”, the morphology and syntax have not been changed.

I do not consider this a realistic example. I have never heard of such a situation, or of such a partial situation, or of the possibility of such a situation. I will not quibble with you over the ramificiations of something that could never occur, as though you could somehow know that your conclusion is reasonable.

Now of course changes in the phonology of a language go hand in hand with changes in its morphology: a classic case is where case endings for nouns are weakened and eventually dropped. But what you seem to be saying, and please correct me if I am wrong, is that you can predict the morphology and syntax of a language from its phonology. In particular, you seem to be suggesting that if a language has a small inventory of phonemes and a simple phonology (that is all syllables must be of the form V or CV or CVC where the final C is restricted to, say, /m/ /n/ and /ŋ/) the language must be analytic, isolating, monosyllabic and have significant tonality.
You are correct in that I consider there to be patterns of grammatical behavior. However, your selection is not a primary consideration. In other words, I do not consider the phonology to be such an important determinant that it alone is sufficient to predict all else that you list.

If we take Spanish, it is a language with a comparatively simple phonology. It has only five vowels and the total number of phonemes is about the same as in Mandarin Chinese. The range of consonant clusters is restricted to initial C1C2 where C2 has to be /l/ or /r/. Syllables may only end in a vowel or /ð/, /l/, /n/, /r/, /s/ and /θ/ and even then the /ð/, /r/, and /s/ are weak and even disappear in some speakers/varieties with /θ/ becoming /s/. Whilst Spanish is less synthetic than Latin, from which it derives, it is not isolating, certainly not monosyllabic and does not have significant tonality, at least not at the lexical level, though the difference between statements and questions is often marked only by intonation. Thus we have Spanish and Chinese with broadly similar phonologies (except of course that the phoneme inventories are different) but which are otherwise completely different from each other.
There is a significant point that you are overlooking. Chinese words are monosyllabic. You may insert the term disyllabic if it makes you feel more comfortable. Spanish words can contain a large number of syllables. Therefore, Spanish has far more distinct words than Chinese. Do you disagree? I consider this to be extremely important. As well, Spanish has far more final consonants and has consonant clusters, which Chinese lacks. Therefore, even with a phoneme set of the same size, Spanish has a much larger potential set of distinct words.

Unless I have completely misunderstood what you are saying, what seems to be the sum of your argument is that simple ph