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Christopher Johnson    963310 Tue, 20 Jul 04 04:02 AM

I'm not American, Bob. I'm British, so I don't have to call "them" what you call "them", and you don't have to call "them" what I call "them". I'm certainly not going to stop calling "them" inverted commas simply because of the font being used! (Note: That was a declarative sentence AND an exclamation).

Since you appear to be a little confused about this issue, Bob, allow me to guide you somewhat if I may. Please let's get at least one thing straight:
Inverted commas is the British name for quotation marks.

(source: http://www.bartleby.com/68/12/3412.html)
For more guidance, Bob, you could do worse than to take a look at the following guidelines from the University of Surrey in Britain (Guildford, actually - nice cathedral!):
Inverted Commas are used:
a) When quoting someone’s words or from a book:
e.g. A famous speech from “Hamlet” begins “To be or not to be”. Take care, when quoting from a book/play/poem, that your own sentence leads naturally into the quotation.
b) For titles of books, plays, T.V. programmes, films, newspapers, house-names, names of ships, etc.
e.g. Two of the most famous Elizabethan theatres were “The Globe” and “The Fortune”.
c) When using foreign words, jargon, specialist words or slang; or to show that a word is used sarcastically. Note: use single inverted commas within direct speech:
e.g. “Did you enjoy ‘Pygmalion’?” he asked.
but if you use single inverted commas for speech then use double inverted commas within.
(source: http://www.surrey.ac.uk/Skills/pack/english/invcom.html)

You may have noticed, Bob, that I quite frequently use "them" in the sense of c) above. Since you're an 'authority' on this subject, it's a fair bet that you have indeed noticed.

Christopher ('CJ')
Robert Lieblich    963321 Tue, 20 Jul 04 04:33 AM

"I'm not American, Bob. I'm British,"

Really. I had no idea. I honestly have forgotten, if I ever knew, if it's true. (So many posters, so little time)
"so I don't have to call "them" what you call "them", and you don't have to call "them" what I call "them"."

That would be true if we were both from Tajikistan. It's not a question of necessity but of good practice. If my memory is at least correct that you live in the US, why not adhere to the local usages? I think it's clear that you always use "inverted commas" and were following your usual practice for AUE, so it's not as if you were catering to the peculiarities of the newsgroup.
"I'm certainly not going to stop calling "them" inverted commas simply because of the font being used! (Note: That was a declarative sentence AND an exclamation)."

No, it's a declarative sentence only. An exclamation has a distinct syntactical form: "What a piece of work is man!" In fairness to you, an awful lot of people (including a lot of awful people) are under the misimpression that you can put a ! at the end of anything and all it means is that the reader should hear it in a slightly louder tone of voice. But they're wrong. If the words don't carry the force unaided, rewrite; if all else fails, turn the sentence into an exclamation and get your ! that way. It's like those people who put question marks at the end of some declarative sentences because those sentences indicate a desire to learn more: "I wonder what the queen is doing tonight?" Feh! ("Feh" is an exclamation.)

I might add that I've read all the arguments to the contrary of my position on the ! and the ? None is persuasive to me. All these exclamations that aren't and questions that aren't are just gumming up the language. Feel free to quote me on that, whether in question marks or inverted commas.
"Since you appear to be a little confused about this issue, Bob, allow me to guide you somewhat if I may."

Thank you so much. I obviously need far more help than I realized. How much do you charge for this instruction?
"Please let's get at least one thing straight: Inverted commas is the British name for quotation marks."

No, it is *a* British name for quotation marks. Did you read the entire thread as requested?
"(source: http://www.bartleby.com/68/12/3412.html) For more guidance, Bob, you could do worse than to take a look at the following guidelines from ... ‘Pygmalion’?” he asked. but if you use single inverted commas for speech then use double inverted commas within. (source: http://www.surrey.ac.uk/Skills/pack/english/invcom.html)"

But in the US *quotation marks* are used for all those purposes, as surely you know. And many Brits use the term "quotation marks" for these marks in all their different functions. Quotation marks are what you are pleased to call "inverted commas." So your insistence that the term shouldn't be used when the marks enclose something other than a quotation is given the lie by your own source.
"You may have noticed, Bob, that I quite frequently use "them" in the sense of c) above. Since you're an 'authority' on this subject, it's a fair bet that you have indeed noticed."

I have. It strikes me as pointless, but I wouldn't have said anything if you hadn't rubbed my nose in it.

Bob Lieblich
This whole thread is rapidly becoming pointless
R J Valentine    963331 Tue, 20 Jul 04 04:47 AM

...
} I'm not American, Bob. I'm British, so I don't have to call } "them" what you call "them",
You're in America, right? Nobody blames you for being British, but it's irrelevant.
} and you don't have to call "them" } what I call "them".
Of course not. He's in America.
} I'm certainly not going to stop calling } "them" inverted commas simply because of the font being used! } (Note: That was a declarative sentence AND an exclamation).

No, it wasn't. It was a declarative sentence with an incorrect exclamation point at the end. It was certainly not an exclamation.

} Since you appear to be a little confused about this issue,

He didn't seem confused about the issue at all. (You don't either, more's the pity.)
} Bob, allow me to guide you somewhat if I may. Please let's get } at least one thing straight:
}
} Inverted commas is the British name for quotation marks.

Used to be. Get a newer book.
} (source: http://www.bartleby.com/68/12/3412.html) }
} For more guidance, Bob, you could do worse than to take a look at } the following guidelines from the University of Surrey in Britain } (Guildford, actually - nice cathedral!):
}
} Inverted Commas are used:
Quotation marks are used:
} a) When quoting someone’s words or from a book: } e.g. A famous speech from “Hamlet” begins “To be or not to be”.

Those are little rectangles here. Better:
A famous speech from Hamlet begins "To be or not to be".

} Take care, when quoting from a book/play/poem, that your own } sentence leads naturally into the quotation.

Better:
When quoting from a book or play or poem, take care that your own sentence leads naturally into the quotation.
} b) For titles of books, plays, T.V. programmes, films, } newspapers, house-names, names of ships, etc. } e.g. Two of the most famous Elizabethan theatres were } “The Globe” and “The Fortune”.
For titles of books, plays, television programs, films, and newspapers use italics or underlining. For titles of stories, skits, and other lesser works use quotation marks. Capitalize proper nouns.

} c) When using foreign words, jargon, specialist words or slang;

For foreign words (and jargon, specialist words, and slang used as if they are foreign words) use italics or underlining.
} or to show that a word is used sarcastically.

Don't use words sarcastically; you won't be able to pull it off.

} Note: use single } inverted commas within direct speech:
} e.g. “Did you enjoy ‘Pygmalion’?” he asked. } but if you use single inverted commas for speech then use } double inverted commas within.
Those two within's need some work.
} (source: http://www.surrey.ac.uk/Skills/pack/english/invcom.html) }
} You may have noticed, Bob, that I quite frequently use "them" } in the sense of c) above. Since you're an 'authority' on this } subject, it's a fair bet that you have indeed noticed.

Of course he's noticed. He's probably shaking his head at the confidence you seem to have in what you say. People cut him some slack when he speaks confidently about the law, because he's got a degree and some thirty-seven years of experience. And he's usually right.

R. J. Valentine
Charles Riggs    963378 Tue, 20 Jul 04 07:56 AM

"An 'omi' is a man, 'varda' means 'look', and 'ken' means 'house' in Polari (see Round the Horne , and plenty of websites)."

That explanation allowed me to delete a post; if I can play the game Evan described, what is Polari? I don't Google unless I have to: AUE should be self-contained.

Charles Riggs
Charles Riggs    963407 Tue, 20 Jul 04 09:30 AM

"Since you appear to be a little confused about this issue, Bob, allow me to guide you somewhat if I may. Please let's get at least one thing straight:"

I'm sorry, Chris, but that is no way to address a respected regular, not to mention the fact he knows a good bit about English himself. And, much as you'll hate hearing it, he's many years your senior. I think older people, unless they're real cave dwellers, should be given at least a degree of respect.

Charles Riggs
Joachim Herzog    963422 Tue, 20 Jul 04 11:39 AM

"} Inverted commas is the British name for quotation marks. Used to be. Get a newer book."

"Inverted commas" is still the more usual BrE term. "Quotation marks" is used and understood, but is not idiomatic in BrE.

Joachim
Mike Lyle    963429 Tue, 20 Jul 04 12:51 PM

"An 'omi' is a man, 'varda' means 'look', and 'ken' means 'house' in Polari (see Round the Horne , and plenty of websites)."

"That explanation allowed me to delete a post; if I can play the game Evan described, what is Polari? I don't Google unless I have to: AUE should be self-contained."

Also, more 'regularly', 'Parlari' and one or two other spellings; note that it's non-rhotic. A lingua franca, I think London-centred, once common among street traders and 'carnies'; it spread to the theatre, especially such performers as chorus boys, and so is now associated with the camp crowd. I don't really know how prevalent it actually is; but I believe carnies ('showmen') use elements of it mixed with Romany words in their private English, and a few inveterate Round the Horne fans like occasionally to spice their discourse with the few words they (='we') learned from the programme.
It seems to have more words of Italian origin than any other, and the structure is English. I think it overlapped with 'criminal cant' quite a lot. One of Partridge's books, Here, There, and Everywhere , has an essay on it which I'd like to read; but I see it came out in 1949, when Partridge was 55, so it may be missing our generation's viewpoint: his Dictionary of Historical Slang , for example, doesn't seem to make the camp connection.
Mike.
Dr Robin Bignall    963461 Tue, 20 Jul 04 01:16 PM

"Since you appear to be a little confused about this ... I may. Please let's get at least one thing straight:"

"I'm sorry, Chris, but that is no way to address a respected regular, not to mention the fact he knows ... your senior. I think older people, unless they're real cave dwellers, should be given at least a degree of respect."

Possibly the third degree?
I'm intrigued by the concept that if a Brit decides (or has the decision made for him) to live in America, he should start trying to become American ASAP. There are already nearly 300 million Americans: what Brit wants to become yet another? Half the fun of visiting America comes from complete strangers hearing the British accent and usage, and introducing themselves. I have a weakness for nubile young ladies with smiles from ear to ear and twice the normal number of teeth telling me I'm 'real cute'. It doesn't happen here, where ageism rulez, innit.

wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall
Hertfordshire
England
Christopher Johnson    963472 Tue, 20 Jul 04 01:52 PM

"... I'm sorry, Chris, but that is no way to ... dwellers, should be given at least a degree of respect."

"Possibly the third degree? I'm intrigued by the concept that if a Brit decides (or has the decision made for ... and twice the normal number of teeth telling me I'm 'real cute'. It doesn't happen here, where ageism rulez, innit."

I have no desire to "become American", Robin, as you may have gathered. I much prefer Britain and the British way of doing things. I live in America (Chicago area) because my parents live here. I have every intention of going back to England as soon as I am able to. I'm a Brit through and through, I'm afraid.

Christopher ('CJ')
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