the tense

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Ant_222  #487151  Mon, 10 Mar 08 09:04 PM
CJ: «Note that the action described in the before clause in these cases never happened, so there's no reason to enter into those mental calculations of which event happened first.»

I think it's not always true: "Before I had finised writing this sentece, the teached dictaded the next one". Here, "finished" does happen, though later than desired...

CJ: «Do you have the same reaction to this? What was your job in England before you came here?»

May I ask you the same question about "What had been your job before you came here"?

Thanks in advance.
  
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CalifJim  #487155  Mon, 10 Mar 08 09:16 PM
Ant_222
Here, "finished" does happen, though later than desired...
A very clever self-referential case.  I don't think anything in the sentence indicates 'later than desired', though.  You could have left it at 'Here, "finished" does happen.'

But to return to the question.  in these cases referred to the two examples I gave, not to all cases. Sorry if that was not clear.  The non-occurrence of an event is just one of the situations that can trigger the past perfect after before.

CJ 

  
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Ant_222  #487162  Mon, 10 Mar 08 09:35 PM
CJ: «A very clever self-referential case.»

Didn't think that deeply about it :) However, I felt (and feel) there's something strange to it (like a time paradox because you realize what you desired only when your desire had failed to be satisfied...)

« I don't think anything in the sentence indicates 'later than desired', though.»

Well, I just meant the teacher dictating too fast, but you're right anyway.
  
Newguest  #487167  Mon, 10 Mar 08 09:59 PM

CalifJim
Newguest
it's a bit strange for me
 

 

Newguest,

You say that What did you do in England before you came here? is a bit strange for you.

Do you have the same reaction to this? What was your job in England before you came here?

I'm just curious.

CJ 

Hi. I'm not sure if my reaction to your sentence would be the same. In my sentence I wrote "did you do" before you did something else. That's why I thought that saying "What had you been doing...before..." would be more suitable. In your example you write "what was.." instead of "what did you do." However, I might say, or rather ask: hmm, actually I don't know. I think it would have to be "what had you been doing" just like in my example. I can't think of any other way of saying this using the past perfect tense. Wink

or maybe WHAT HAD BEEN YOUR JOB..

  
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CalifJim  #487222  Tue, 11 Mar 08 02:25 AM
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I'm not sure if my reaction to your sentence would be the same.
Interesting.  You know, the two sentences mean the same thing.  In this context, most speakers will take these as equal in meaning:  What did you do? = What was your job?

What had your job been? is the past perfect equivalent, but, as with the other example, the past perfect is not necessary -- nor even the best choice. Smile

CJ 

  
Doll  #487329  Tue, 11 Mar 08 09:57 AM

Hello New Guest, 

I really understand what you are looking for because when I was at intermediate level, I was questioning everything like you and interested in thinking every sentence in detail. Past perfect tense was my favourite.I questioned and thought about its usage for years because it wasn't an existing tense in my native language. I felt inefficient when I didn't use past perfect or had questions about it in my mind. To tell the truth, sometimes I still have. This is because I learn English as a foreign language and I don't have a native spaking environment key which will open the doors of questions so, it takes ,really, years to completely grab the real and accurate usage of something. This goes for present perfect tense and modals too. The thing you should do, if you care what I say, just to be patient. After years, I am sure, you will regard both tenses same even the past simple better in similar contexts as your original question.Smile  

One more thing, your thinking too much analytical on grammatical forms of the language may be an effect of your English teacher. You know, they do unnecessary exams and want you to find the right choice and want you make a discrimination between whether to use simple past or perfect though sometimes both can be used. To be frank, I still suffer from this. I am still too analytic.

  
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Newguest  #487361  Tue, 11 Mar 08 11:18 AM

Doll

 I am still too analytic.

 

me too

  
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