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Angliholic  #456276  Sun, 23 Dec 07 01:13 PM

 Yankee wrote:
Now is often more limited or specific than nowadays. 

For example, you can say "We have to leave now."  You cannot simply replace 'now' with 'nowadays' in that sentence.

Thanks, Amy.

Got it.

  
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Hoa Thai  #456447  Sun, 23 Dec 07 10:04 PM

 Marius Hancu wrote:

"In this day and age"

"In one of my darkest days"
*"In these days and ages"
*"In these days, ...."

"In these days of ...."


 Yankee wrote:

"In one of my darkest days" =>  "on one of my darkest days" / "in one of my darkest hours".
"In these days and ages"
=> No
"In these days, ...."
=> No
"In these days of ...." => OK

Hi Amy and Marius Hancu,

We, ESL learners, rely on your words to learn. The problem arises when your words are in conflict with those of professional writers from different trusted sources. We cannot reach the latter group of people to ask for their view. Therefore, we need you to explain to us why you think differently. Otherwise, we will ever wonder how to justify our choice, one way or another.

Attached are a few sources that raise the conflict. Could you kindly review them and share with us your opinions? Moreover, if possible, could you please let us know the reasons behind your choice? About the phrases you rejected, have you not seen their rare use, or you detected a flaw in their usage or my misunderstanding?

Thanks and Best Regards,
Hoa Thai

EDIT NOTE: Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all of you - the teachers, moderators, helpful visitiors, and learners.

*********************

“In these days” :

Virginia Military Institute – From the office of Superintendent, Remarks of Commencement Ceremony - http://www.vmi.edu/Superintendent.aspx?id=746
BBC -  http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3590795.stm
New York Times - http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9A00E0DE1F39E033A25751C0A9679C94659ED7CF

“In these days and ages” :

Canadian Office of the Commissioner for Federal Judicial Affairs - http://recueil.cmf.gc.ca/en/1997/1998fc21481.html/1998fc21481.html.html

American Government - Department of Health and Human Services - FDA -  http://www.fda.gov/cder/present/clinpharm2000/1204preg.txt

In addition, here is an extract from Why Are Some People Healthy and Others Not?: The Determinants of Health of Populations (Social Institutions and Social Change) (Social Institutions and Social Change) (Paperback) – by Robert G. Evans, M. L. Barer, Theodore R. Marmor – page 333:

“The human being is a biological organism searching for greater scientific understanding and more control over nature in the ever-present search for a panacea, but dreaming also of the highest social evolution possible. In these days and ages, such an evolution entails a new concept of what is a ‘hygienic’ world.”


  
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Best Regards - Hoa Thai
Marius Hancu  #456624  Mon, 24 Dec 07 11:49 AM
None of your counter-examples has
*"In these days, ...."
at the beginning of the sentence and followed by comma, as in the  OP.
In such cases, one should, IMO, use
"These days, ..."

These are important details, at least to me.
  
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Marius Hancu  #456633  Mon, 24 Dec 07 12:27 PM
Re the other one,
the Google hits are quite clear here, IMO:
4,310 for "In these days and ages"
5,420,000 for "In this day and age."

Now, you and/or various governement bureaucrats may want to write the way you want, but I'll keep my opinion, based on my experience, which BTW is supported by Yankee's, about the idiomatic usage.

Also, see what this idiom dictionary mentions:
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/in+this+day+and+age
  
Hoa Thai  #456640  Mon, 24 Dec 07 01:02 PM
 Marius Hancu wrote:
Re the other one,
the Google hits are quite clear here, IMO:
4,310 for "In these days and ages"
5,420,000 for "In this day and age."
Now, you and/or various governement bureaucrats may want to write the way you want, but I'll keep my opinion.

Also, see what this idiom dictionary mentions:
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/in+this+day+and+age

Hi,

As I stated earlier, "In this day and age" is correct. My question is still the same as before: although "In these days and ages" is rarely used, what is the justification to say it is wrong when many professional writers working for trusted sources use it? 

Regarding "In these days," you believe that it is bad and my counter-examples did not show similar usage. Again, here are a few sources that I think rather reputable, especially the one from Princeton, demonstrate otherwise:

http://press.princeton.edu/chapters/s8237.html

http://www.quebecoislibre.org/020316-6.htm

http://www.maec.org/lyons/7.html

If you advice us not to use the phrases because you have not seen its use, then we could draw our own conclusions instead of believing that they have a flaw due to usage (grammatical or semantical) errors (i.e., 'bad English').

Hoa Thai


  
Yankee  #456711  Mon, 24 Dec 07 05:38 PM
 Hoa Thai wrote:

As I stated earlier, "In this day and age" is correct. My question is still the same as before: although "In these days and ages" is rarely used, what is the justification to say it is wrong when many professional writers working for trusted sources use it?  I think that is a gross misstatement.  I strongly disagree that "many professional writers" would choose to say or write "In these days and ages" rather than "in this day and age". 

It is possible to find just about any turn of phrase if you look hard enough.  Sometimes people will intentionally change a fixed expression for some special reason. 
In addition, when people speak, they often inadvertently mix or mangle words and make errors that they wouldn't make when they write.  There are sometimes expressions that are unique to a particular company or organization.  A sort of "company slang" if you will.  There are even expressions that are used only within one single family, for example.  I know my own family has a few of those.  People outside the immediate family wouldn't understand them or would just find them to be quaint or oddball. 

At what point would you be willing to consider something incorrect, Hoa Thai?  If less than a hundredth of one percent of native speakers use it?  Or is it the case that a given expression must result in no Google hits whatsoever before you are convinced?

Are you suggesting I should say things such as "Use whatever words and phrases you like, whenever you like.  It doesn't matter whether they're idiomatic, natural, grammatical or not.  In fact, you don't need to learn anything about English at all.  Just put whatever words you like together in whatever pattern you like."  Is that what you think I ought to be telling people?

Regarding "In these days," you believe that it is bad and my counter-examples did not show similar usage. Again, here are a few sources that I think rather reputable, especially the one from Princeton, demonstrate otherwise: 

Why don't you attempt an explanation of the usages you found rather than simply posting these examples without any further thought?  Have you looked at the contexts you've quoted?  Have you digested them?   The way you've posted your examples seems to be nothing more than a stubborn effort to prove other people wrong.  From what I've seen of your English, it seems to me you are capable of analysis.  Why not put some of that talent to work here?


If you advise us not to use the phrases because you have not seen its use, then we could draw our own conclusions instead of believing that they have a flaw due to usage (grammatical or semantical) errors (i.e., 'bad English').  Do you really think that  the average ESL student would prefer a comment such as "I've never seen that usage" rather than "No, that isn't typical" or "No, that would be an error"?   Do you think most ESL students would like to have us telling them "Oh, yes, you can use that phrase because one person out of every five hundred thousand has used that expression once."

Hi Hoa Thai
My comments are inside the quote in blue.
  
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Amy "You can't depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus." - Mark Twain
Marius Hancu  #456735  Mon, 24 Dec 07 07:48 PM
>If you advice us

------
Immediately after Potsdam, the traditional story of the atomic bomb
flashes to the Pacific theater of World War II for four days: 6-9
August 1945. In these days, atomic bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and
Nagasaki, and the Soviet Union entered the Pacific War.


http://press.princeton.edu/chapters/s8237.html
-------

Poor example.
The meaning here is during these/those four days, and  is appropriate in the context.

It has a different meaning from the original example:

These days,  people often promise to improve their health by exercising more, eating healthier or quitting smoking.

where it simply means now, during the times which we live now, today, etc.

  
Hoa Thai  #456793  Tue, 25 Dec 07 01:14 AM

Hi Amy,

First, if you'll forgive my saying so, I think you read me wrong when you felt annoyed by me throwing examples to prove my points. I was not trying to prove either you or Hancu wrong but to look for a different answer from just a simple ‘No’ or ‘Bad’. You do understand how learners would feel when they receive such a terse and clipped response – I believe. And often such response would force learners to ask for further clarification. The whole exchange becomes less productive and ineffective.

‘You is stupid’ is definitely wrong no matter how we look at it. However, any phrase, especially a noun phrase with proper order of words, in itself can only be inappropriately / inelegantly used, but ‘bad’, which has a wide range of meaning. Of course, ‘These days’ in place of ‘Nowadays’ is better than ‘In these days’. However, the latter in itself is not ‘bad’.

I believe students would appreciate if teachers can go one-step further telling them that the usage of a phrase does not fit in this way but it would fit well in another way – even when the ‘another way’ is rare. Without a follow up, it could be potentially easy for the students to make another mistake when they think its usage is wrong everywhere, in every application. That is more damaging – I think!

Yes! You are right – I am very stubborn. My most loved teacher said so to me too. I would not accept his teaching if he kept telling me, “it is wrong” without any further explanation. And if he kept wiggling out of his way by saying nobody uses it, I would come back to show him otherwise if I do find people use it effectively. To me, teaching is the most honored profession because it is done for the benefits of the students more than for those of the teachers. The more one does in a volunteering job, the more one needs to work harder; the more one is honored, the more one needs to show care. Those are just virtues of givers anyway.

You did exactly what I expected from a good teacher. You explained and gave examples when you felt that I did not quite grasp the connection between ‘In’ and ‘days’ as I made a questionable observation through the plural connection.

You also offered In those days,’ to replace ‘In these days,’. However, as soon as I saw that offer, I sensed that you were telling me that the use of ‘these’ is odd, because ‘In those days’ does not even fit well with the original question, which looked for a ‘now‘ meaning. As I said earlier, I did not see the oddity of 'In these days' (and I still do not). That is the reason why I kept throwing examples! In fact, if you search for “[In these days,” you should find a lot of hits and they are used by many professional writers (if you allow me to add lawyers to the group Smile [:)]).

In short, what I have been looking for is an explanation to why ‘In these days,” or 'In these days and ages,' is bad. You said that people might use them a) for special reasons, b) for their ‘company slang’, or c) without realizing of making mistakes. No matter what, when reputable organizations publish their works for public reading, they must be aware of the potential impact of every element in prints in spite of usage rarity. Within a group of scholars, oddity does not go unnoticed! They do not think it is odd, but you do. Therefore, I need to know, where such an oddity in your thought comes from. As a learner, I would be regarded as a fool to tell those writers ‘In these days,” is bad English. However, as a scholar in the art of using English, you should be able to defend yourself when people ask you why you think so.

Thank you for your assessment about my analyzing ability. However, with what I got, I still don’t know why ‘these’ is such a bad word to use in the context of ‘In these days,’ (starting a sentence and is followed by a comma). Again, it can be inappropriate with an attached context, a relationship to something, but it cannot be ‘bad’ just by itself.

Thanks and Best Regards,
Hoa Thai

  
Marius Hancu  #456940  Tue, 25 Dec 07 02:08 PM
>In short, what I have been looking for is an explanation to why ‘In these days,” or 'In these days and ages,' is bad.

For the first, see e.g. the difference in meaning outlined  for your example which I qualified as poor in the above.

Also for the first, just have a look at how many times you can find "in these days" in this search at BNC:

http://sara.natcorp.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/saraWeb?qy=these+days

For the 2nd, see the statistics above. If those aren't enough for you (a ratio of 1:1,000), nothing will, and  you should ask somewhere else, I don't mind it at all. And if you think you know better, hold on to your own conclusions and apply them, you're more than welcome.



Thus, in conclusion, simply because, in our opinion, they are not idiomatic, i.e. not frequent enough in educated speech, in comparison with the alternatives.

  
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