I thought a spider is/was an insect

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Goodman  #511306  Thu, 08 May 08 05:35 PM
New2grammar


As you can see an expert has just disagreed with me



Hi New2Grammar,

I hope I am not that person you are referring to as expert. Before I get in further trouble with the real

experts, I will make this brief comment. Event the experts can be wrong for a long time before realizing

what believed to be the true or correct answer was actually incorrect. Well, scientists thought Pluto was

a planet. Now what do you make of that? (8-|) Geeked

  
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New2grammar  #511318  Thu, 08 May 08 06:03 PM

I agree with you that even experts make mistakes. A lot of theories still hold because no one has proven them wrong so far (or at least, they are still mostly useful though inaccurate under certain circumstances) but doesn't mean they are correct.In fact most things are approximations, a term very common in research communities (or in layman's term, there's always a gray area). To me, an expert is someone who is better in a field than an average person but as I said, it doesn't mean they will make no mistakes and sometimes,they make the most silly ones. :)

My English is not particularly good and sometimes my thoughts when they are put in words become distorted and I apologize for any offensive remarks.

  
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CalifJim  #511321  Thu, 08 May 08 06:13 PM
 Should I use "is" or "was"?

I thought a spider is/was an insect, but it is in fact an arachnid.

Use "was".  This is not reported speech!  (And the first part is not a universal truth anyway; it's a universal falsehood!)  This is one of the most typical patterns in the English language:  I thought it was ..., but (actually) it is ...

In the sentence in blue, "is" is completely and totally impossible in normal idiomatic speech -- except:

I thought (to myself) [pause] "A spider is an insect". 

Compare.  The first sentence below has indirect speech, but the others don't. The last sentence has a main clause in the present, thus allowing either tense in the subordinate clause.

My professor said that spiders are (were also possible) insects!  I didn't think they were (are not possible).  I think he is (was also possible) wrong.

CJ 

  
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Grammar Geek  #511322  Thu, 08 May 08 06:14 PM

You are mixing up two different things.

In reported speech, we tend to backshift, but may leave it in the present if we want to emphasize the "eternal truth" aspect. (This was already stated.)

This is not the same thing as saying "I thought ..." Following "I thought..." you need the past tense! Do not use the present, even for eternal truths, or you will sound very odd.

A: I thought the Earth was round.

B: It IS round!

B: Ah! I thought so! I thought it was round!

 

  
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Barbara, who answers in American English.
Pter  #511332  Thu, 08 May 08 06:53 PM
Thank you very much indeed, Jim.  That's a great explanation.  You cleared all my doubts.  Forgive me for thinking out loud as I hope you can correct me if I am still making any mistakes. 

Firstly, I didn't notice that it was (can only use "was", "is" not possible?) not reported speech!  And universal falsehood.  What a phrase!  This is important because we are not talking about something that is always true.  As a result, we can only use the past tense in sentences starting with "I thought it was".  The "was" is not the result of backshifting.  It is used instead to indicate that the believe was hold true in the past but is now found to be false.

Secondly, both present tense and past tense are possible in reported speech when talking about universal truths or things that still hold true at the present moment.  This has been confusing me for a long time because I was taught to use the simple present in such cases and I thought *only* simple present is correct.  It has been troubling me because sometimes I saw past tense being used and I always wondered why.

While I was waiting eagerly for your reply, I opened Randolph Quirk's A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language, which I recently bought from Amazon.  It doesn't mention the first point (or I just couldn't find it), but on the second point, it totally agrees with you!

You are really a great teacher!

Now, one last question.  Please forgive my insatiable desire to get to every details.  While both present tense and past tense are acceptable for the sample sentences you used, which of them sounds more natural?  Are the ones inside the brackets less natural / common?

EDIT:  I didn't see Barbara's post when I replied.  Thank you very much Barbara.  It's obvious that you also didn't see Jim's post when you replied.  I am so glad to also get the confirmation from you. Once again, I can take your answer to the bank!  I also want to thank Goodman, N2G and Marius for all your insights you have given me!

  
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New2grammar  #511336  Thu, 08 May 08 07:08 PM
"I thought *only* simple present is correct."

Either I don't understand this topic or you're still digesting the material :)

 

  
Pter  #511340  Thu, 08 May 08 07:14 PM
I thought *only* simple present is (oops, should be was) correct, but I thought wrong.  I now know that both present tense and past tense are possible.  Sorry for the confusion.

I always have problems on this.  How to avoid this confusion?

When I say "I thought", does it mean what "I thought" has to be false? 

  
Grammar Geek  #511343  Thu, 08 May 08 07:25 PM

If you'll note the time of post, Jim and I posted a minute apart, clearly writing our posts at the same time.

I thought *only* simple present is (oops, should be was) correct, but I thought wrong.  I now know that both present tense and past tense are possible

NO! "I thought..." REQUIRES past. Present tense is NOT possible!

It doesn't have to turn out to be false.It can turn out that what you thought came true.

A: You're so smart to have brought your umbrella. Can I share it?
B: Of course you can. Even though the forecast didn't call for it, I thought it might rain. I'm sure glad I brought it!

A: Why didn't you want to date me in high school?
B: Back when we were in high school, I thought you were a jerk. Now I KNOW you are a jerk. Go away.

You avoid the confusion by always using the past after "I thought," (unless it's an internal dialogue as Jim suggests above, which is NOT part of typical narrative writing).

  
New2grammar  #511344  Thu, 08 May 08 07:26 PM

 One small thing to add. The reported speech idea was brought into this thread by me and it confused everyone here. My bad. But when I included the thread for reference, I didn't suggest this topic was reported speech. I just wanted to point out that general truths can be said in the past tense. And that's why I said, it was be less related when I made the point. Sorry if you were confused by my statement.

I don't know, to me"I thought" comes very natural because I use it every day :) Lucky me

(Edit: actually, the reason it comes naturally to me is that when I say I thought I pictured a point in the past and
whatever I'm going to say next has to be in the past tense because it is a thought in the past, may or may not be real now! if you use the
present tense, it contradicts with I thought!!! It should be "I think" (what you're currently thinking )

I hope you understand my poor explanation. I've tried my best.
Another example,
I was so drunk, I thought my father was a women for a moment. (of course my father isn't a woman)
)

  
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