TOEIC Question IV

1 2 3 4

Share on Facebook

Marius Hancu

#318836 Tue, 23 Jan 07 02:16 PM

Lcchang wrote:
It's interesting to hear that the issue was mentioned in New York Times. How did they conduct the statistics? Just for curiosity.

The statistics are mine (Copyright Big Smile [:D]

).
This is how you go about generating them:

Go to Google:
http://www.google.com
and perform from there a search on the pages of the New York Times site by using as your search phrase:

site:nytimes.com "not to ask questions"

(yes, everything in blue, and don't forget the quotation marks)

Marius Hancu

Joined on Wed, Apr 26 2006

Montreal, Canada

Veteran Member (11,673)

Quotation marks

CalifJim

#318990 Tue, 23 Jan 07 09:06 PM

How about this example:

They have invaded us. To not defend ourselves would be cowardly.

They have invaded us. Not to defend ourselves would be cowardly.

Hi, Nona!

Yes, maybe it's just you! And maybe it's just me!
Your two versions mean exactly the same thing to me, except that the first one seems like a more awkward way of saying it (to my ear anyway). I think you are picking up a different meaning between the two, but I don't seem able to wrap my brain around that idea. Both say to me that it would be cowardly if we didn't defend ourselves. I can't begin to guess which of the two means that to you, and it's even more difficult for me to guess what meaning you might assign to the other one. Tongue Tied [:S]

Is this one of those double negative British things like those I so often see in British writings, e.g., She was not unattractive or The decision was not illogical? Those usually twist my mind pretty thoroughly. And I seldom find these constructions in American prose. Smile [:)]

CalifJim

Joined on Mon, Aug 2 2004

California

Veteran Member (16,555)

"There are no facts, only interpretations" - Nietzsche

Constructions, Negatives

Ant_222

#319013 Tue, 23 Jan 07 09:56 PM

Excuse me for the disturbance and let me ask a similar question that just came to my mind.

1. You must not do it
2. You must do it

Seems that the above to satements are not negations of each other.

The negation of the first one is
1n. You are allowed to do it

and the negation of the second is
2n. You are allowed not to do it.

Am I correct thus far?

And the following sentences, if they were correct, would be the negations #1 and #2 respectively:

*1n: You not must not do it.
*2m: You not must do it.

Ant_222

Joined on Sun, May 21 2006

Podolsk, Russia

Contributing Member (1,525)

Negations

CalifJim

#319107 Wed, 24 Jan 07 02:48 AM

This is probably best discussed in a separate thread Ant_222. Nevertheless,

In the case of modalities (can, may , must, etc.), negation may apply to the modality or to the residue (the proposition)..

Let's start with You have to do it. (You must do it.)

Negating the modality gives: You don't have to do it. (You need not do it.) (You are permitted/allowed not to do it.)

Negating the residue gives: You must not do it. (You are not permitted/allowed to do it.)

Each modal verb has its own way of acting when not is added, and it can depend on the context of the modal verb as well. Typically, must not negates the residue, and need not negates the modality, to mention just two.

CJ

CalifJim

Verbs, Modals, Negations, Modal verbs

Pioussoul

#319125 Wed, 24 Jan 07 04:14 AM

Nona The Brit wrote:
How about
Not to be able to eat cake, that would be torture to me.

To not be able to eat cake, that would be torture to me.

I also googled up a book entitled 'How to not hate maths' and I see that as a different meaning to 'How not to hate maths'.

It seems to me that there are times when 'to not' is more appropriate than 'not to'.

Hi, Nona,

I concur completely with you in that there are times when "to not'" is more appropriate than "not to."

Nonetheless, in your case, I presume both are all right. 'How to not hate maths' is an instance of splitting infinitives, which are increasingly acceptable for native speakers. On the other hand, 'How not to hate maths' is a case of negative forms of infinitives, which are correct without a doubt.

Pioussoul

Joined on Mon, Jan 22 2007

nowhere and everywhere

Full Member (246)

I have been captivated by and lost in a fool's paradise for too long to see the truth.

Resume, Negatives

nona the brit

#319232 Wed, 24 Jan 07 10:29 AM

I'm struggling to explain what I mean.

When I see 'To not X' it seems more of a deliberate action/decision to avoid doing X. Whereas 'not to X' just means that you don't do X.

They have invaded us. To not defend ourselves would be cowardly. If we decided that our best course of action would be to 'not defend ourselves'as a policy, we would be cowards.

They have invaded us. Not to defend ourselves would be cowardly. 'If we don't 'defend ourselves' we would be cowards.

How to 'not hate maths'. I already actively hate maths. This book will teach me how turn my attitude around into someone who does not.

'How not to hate maths' - if you take this approach you won't hate maths.

That doesn't help much, does it. Sad [:(] .

nona the brit

Joined on Wed, Sep 22 2004

England

Veteran Member (11,301)

The name says it all.

Lil' Ruby Rose

#319236 Wed, 24 Jan 07 10:36 AM

I can "feel" the difference between the two as well, Nona - but it's pretty subtle.

I agree with you that that difference feels like "to not do something" = to make a decision to refrain from doing something where "not to do something" = simply to fail to do something which you might have done.

Perhaps the difficulty in pinning this down reflects the fact that when I'm saying this to myself I'm putting considerably more stress on the word "not" in one than the other - is the way we're moving the 'not' around just trying to emphasise that shift in the nucleus of the sentence?

Lil' Ruby Rose

Joined on Wed, Dec 20 2006

West of England

Regular Member (850)

Enlightenment is always preceded by confusion.

Difference between

CalifJim

#319488 Wed, 24 Jan 07 10:16 PM

That doesn't help much, does it. Sad <img src=

">.

No, not much. But rest assured, it does help some! The deliberateness and activeness ideas rang somewhat true. Smile [:)]

CalifJim

Ant_222

#319489 Wed, 24 Jan 07 10:17 PM

«Each modal verb has its own way of acting when not is added, and it can depend on the context of the modal verb as well»

Thanks for the clarification, CalifJim!

Ant_222

Verbs, Modals, Modal verbs

1 2 3 4

RSS Feed: ESL General English Grammar Questions