Richard Yates    651037 Sat, 08 Nov 08 11:40 PM "Some on your list may lose the "d" less easily ... the back, but it is still plausible that some do." "Now who's being condescending?" What was condescending? Do you mean that I was stating things that you already know? If so, that would be condescending only if I knew that you knew them. I did not. "I'm aware of all that. Of course." If you were, it was not evident in your post and you have not addressed it in this one. "But it is, of course, complete baloney, hooey, nonsense, and erroneous to claim that "handbag" with a "d" is a ... is /not/ indistinguishable from "hambag": it is probably sometimes indistinguishable from "hanbag", but I'm by no means sure of that." He made no claim about your speech, he just said that if your are sounding the "d", it is a spelling pronunciation. I don't know why you refer to that as "mere" as the could just imply literacy. You have not addressed my several points about our own speech not necessarily being evidence of general use or trends, and our perceptions of our own speech being tenuous evidence. If you "are aware of all that" why are you so certain about your own speech? (This is not a rhetorical question; there may very well be ways in which you know your own speech better than others know theirs. I don't know what they are, however.) if you acknowledge that is probably sometimes indistinguishable from "hanbag" then consider the microscopic change that is necessary to go from there to "hambag" : the lips that close to form the "b" have only to do so a tiny bit sooner for the sound to be an "m." It is such a small difference that it seems entirely likely that many people do just that. "Peter's post was over-hasty." It may have been, but "baloney", etc. does make a case that it was. I might disagree with his inference that no one says the "d" in "handsome", but his description of how it probably often happens is a good one as far as I can tell. (Is " 'baloney' , etc. " a compound subject requiring "do" and not "does".) Richard Yates Spelling, Pronunciation, Speaking, Writing, Speeches, Compound Subjects

	Robert Bannister    651039 Sun, 09 Nov 08 12:10 AM "Peter Groves filted:" "If you utter a fully released /d/ in "handbag" (hand-bag) ... this doesn't quite explain why they say "fore-head" for /forrid/." "I was with you (more or less) until you hit "falcon", and I don't think it's from unfamiliarity; most of us may not raise them, but the birds themselves are in plentiful supply around these parts.." Quite apart from the birds, Ford have had a Falcon model around for years. In my part of Australia, it is always pronounced with the first "a" as in "pal". On the rare occasions I hear the "fall" vowel, I assume the speaker is a recent immigrant from the UK. Rob Bannister Robert Bannister Vowels, Countries, Australia

	Martin Crossley    651070 Sun, 09 Nov 08 01:12 AM "That is, of course, baloney. Handsaw, handbook, handgun, hand-carved, hand-reared, handguard, handbell, hand-etc...handbag. A hambag would be a bag to put ham in." [nq:1]I'm hearing Dame Edith Evans, an actress of impeccable diction: The context: [youtube:tiNVy5nfbcQ] The actor John Gielgud has good diction but pronounces "handbag" with a silent "d".[/nq] His sounds more like "hendbeg" to me. Definitely not a hambag, nor even a hembeg. Substitute the Northern English vowel sound into it, then go just a touch nearer Dame Edith's, and it's near enough to mine. (Rhymes with sandbag.) Martin Crossley Vowels, Context, Countries, United Kingdom, Great Britain, Languages, Video

	Peter Groves    651097 Sun, 09 Nov 08 02:44 AM "Peter Groves filted: I was with you (more or less) ... the birds themselves are in plentiful supply around these parts.." "Quite apart from the birds, Ford have had a Falcon model around for years. In my part of Australia, it ... occasions I hear the "fall" vowel, I assume the speaker is a recent immigrant from the UK. Rob Bannister" It's the same in my part (Melbourne). But the car appeared after the spelling pronunciation became established, I assume. Daniel Jones' EPD, which describes a pre-war kind of RP, gives the pronunciations /f(OR)lk@n/ (I'm using (OR) for the vowel of "fall") and /fOLlk@n/ (as in "folly") and notes that /f(OR)k@n/ (without the /l/) "is the usual pronunciation among those who practise the sport of falconry". Peter Groves Peter Groves Spelling, Pronunciation, Vowels, Speaking, Countries, Writing, Australia

	R H Draney    651082 Sun, 09 Nov 08 02:44 AM Richard Yates filted: "That is, of course, baloney. Handsaw, handbook, handgun, hand-carved, hand-reared, handguard, handbell, hand-etc...handbag. A hambag would be a bag to put ham in." "Some on your list may lose the "d" less easily than others depending on what the adjacent phonemes are. Elision ... word before, I twould probably exaggerate the pronunciation as "ham bag" and fully release the "m" before starting the "b"." Was anyone here ever in a band that played Beatles songs to warm up?...now, those of you with your hands raised, admit it: you used to sing "help me get my feedbag on the ground", didn't you?...r "You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" R H Draney Pronunciation, Speaking, Songs

	R H Draney    651086 Sun, 09 Nov 08 02:46 AM Robert Bannister filted: "Quite apart from the birds, Ford have had a Falcon model around for years. In my part of Australia, it ... On the rare occasions I hear the "fall" vowel, I assume the speaker is a recent immigrant from the UK." US Ford had a model with the same name, but I think they quit making them in the 60s or 70s...I wrote to them around the time of Y2K, suggesting that a special edition "Millennium Falcon" would almost certainly be a hit..r "You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" R H Draney Vowels, Countries, Australia