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Einde O'Callaghan    651095 Sun, 09 Nov 08 03:20 AM

"The pronunciation of this "d" ressembles that of the "t" in "castle"."

"For me, the t in castle is silent. Is that what you mean? If so, you should not assume there is only one possible ponunciation of the d! :)"

No, that isn't what I meant. I know some people who pronounce the "t", just as some people pronounce the "d". That is why I said "it resembles" it (typo corrected). I think it's probably a question of a person's idiolect. However, I haven't checked what the standard pronunciations recorded in the OED or Merriam-Webster are.
Regards, Einde O'Callaghan
mm    651115 Sun, 09 Nov 08 04:06 AM

"That's not true, but not for the reasons others have ... letters didn't all sound alike, as you said they would."

BTW, I wwasn't talking about silent letters. When I try to say the alphabet without moving my lips or tongue, there are no silent letters. I used to try this a lot when I was little, trying to become a ventriloquist, and I tried again when this thread started.
"You don't pronounce the d in handsome?"

"Native speakers of English don't, unless dictating to children. In the same"

I do, and I'm a native speaker, and I'm sure I learned it from many other native speakers, (who I'm sure still pronounce the words as I do) in Western Pa. until I was 11 years old. After that, I lived in Indianapolis but i'm pretty sure that didn't affect my pronunciation of the words you have here.
There is absolutely a clear difference between the pronunciation of handsome and hansom (as in hansom cab), and it is the D.
"way they don't utter a /d/ in saying "sandwich""

I say the d in that, too. Absolutely. A full D. So big it attaches itself both to the san- and to the -wich.
"or "handbag" (which in rapid speech is indistinguishable from "ham-bag")."

Not when I talk, rapidly or not. I've don't think I've ever heard anyone say hanbag or hambag. Well, maybe a few say hanbag, but I hear handbag, like I say it.
Maybe you are young and you hang around with people who don't know how the words are supposed to be pronounced? I think maybe I've seen on tv small children pronouncing the words without the d. With audio only, or voice-overs, I think that might be a standard part of making an adult try to sound like he's a child. For example, even though it doesn't have any of the three words, I think adults trying to sound like kids are used to sing "I don't want to grow up, I'm a toys-r-us kid."
If you mean there is no stop between the first and second syllables, that's true of handsome and maybe sometimes handbag, but the d definitely affects the pronunciation of these two words, all the time. Plus the D is always clear in sandwich. Without the d, they would be pronounced differently.
mm
Ian Jackson    902541 Sun, 09 Nov 08 11:22 AM

The only time I have ever heard (or pronounced it) it is in the Scottish song "The Bonny Lass o' Fyvie" (generally around verse 6). http://www.rampantscotland.com/songs/blsongs fyvie.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oboe

Ian
Peter Duncanson BrE    651146 Sun, 09 Nov 08 01:04 PM

"I'm hearing Dame Edith Evans, an actress of impeccable diction: ... has good diction but pronounces "handbag" with a silent "d"."

"His sounds more like "hendbeg" to me. Definitely not a hambag, nor even a hembeg. Substitute the Northern English vowel sound into it, then go just a touch nearer Dame Edith's, and it's near enough to mine. (Rhymes with sandbag.)"

I'll listen again sometime. At first hearing, Gielgud's "d" was, I thought, silent, or at most, much less distinct than the Evan's "d".

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.english.usage)
Mike Lyle    651149 Sun, 09 Nov 08 07:01 PM

"But it is, of course, complete baloney, hooey, nonsense, and ... from "hanbag", but I'm by no means sure of that."

"He made no claim about your speech, he just said that if your are sounding the "d", it is a spelling pronunciation. I don't know why you refer to that as "mere" as the could just imply literacy."

What I left above of the original message is a clear claim about the speech of native speakers.
"You have not addressed my several points about our own speech not necessarily being evidence of general use or trends, ... ways in which you know your own speech better than others know theirs. I don't know what they are, however.)"

I take that point. I will instead apply my comment to the speech of other native speakers I know.
"if you acknowledge that is probably sometimes indistinguishable from "hanbag" then consider the microscopic change that is necessary to go ... be an "m." It is such a small difference that it seems entirely likely that many people do just that."

"Peter's post was over-hasty."

"It may have been, but "baloney", etc. does (presumably "not") make a case that it was."

No, but it, or they, was, or were, accompanied by an example. As it happens, the shift to "m" from "n" or "nd" is a language feature to which I'm sensitive, at least partly because I remember the derision heaped on a schoolmate when he said "samwich", and because I've known it to actually cause misunderstanding.
"I might disagree with his inference that no one says the "d" in "handsome", but his description of how it probably often happens is a good one as far as I can tell."

Well, yes; but it's taking it too far to suggest everybody does it. Perhaps I reacted too strongly, as one sometimes does on Usenet.
"(Is " 'baloney' , etc. " a compound subject requiring "do" and not "does".)"

An interesting question. Sometimes that "et" is strictly an "and", and sometimes in effect an "or". But you could argue that it depends on the placing of the quotation marks. Thinking about it is beginning to confuse me. In short, I don't know; but I prefer singular here, taking the subject of the verb to be the quotation, not the items listed or implied in it.

Mike.
mm    902553 Sun, 09 Nov 08 11:11 PM

"For me, the t in castle is silent. Is that ... :) I've never pronounced hautboy, and likely never will. :)"

"The only time I have ever heard (or pronounced it) it is in the Scottish song "The Bonny Lass o' Fyvie" (generally around verse 6). http://www.rampantscotland.com/songs/blsongs fyvie.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oboe Ian"

Of course now I can't stop saying hautboy in my head. I wonder how long before I blurt it out!
mm
Robert Bannister  , 1 yr 12 days ago

"Quite apart from the birds, Ford have had a Falcon ... assume the speaker is a recent immigrant from the UK."

"Do you ever hear "folc'n" ?"

No. The other pronunciation is more like "fawk'n".

Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister  , 1 yr 12 days ago

"Robert Bannister filted:"

"Quite apart from the birds, Ford have had a Falcon ... assume the speaker is a recent immigrant from the UK."

"US Ford had a model with the same name, but I think they quit making them in the 60s or 70s...I wrote to them around the time of Y2K, suggesting that a special edition "Millennium Falcon" would almost certainly be a hit..r"

I wonder if they had a special model for Malta.

Rob Bannister
R H Draney    651173 Mon, 10 Nov 08 12:02 AM

Robert Bannister filted:
"Robert Bannister filted: US Ford had a model with the ... special edition "Millennium Falcon" would almost certainly be a hit..r"

"I wonder if they had a special model for Malta."

The car dreams are made of..r

"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!"
"You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!"
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