Two question about "where"

Hello Ant 222,

I wouldn't say that the answer on your question is so clearcut,that's all.What I'm saying is that grammar speed up the process of the acquisition of the language.And it is beyond doubt.One reason I often come across in discussion on this issue is that a native learner may never learn grammar and still you will never have his/her grasp of language,and you can learn grammar as much as you want.Such comparison is ridiculous.Put somebody in the situation to live the language,to make for living surrounded with that language,to ask for a glass of water,or a piece of bread,and I bet he'll learn the hardest chinese dialect in no time,along with the whole trillion symbols of alphabet if needed.But people like to make things complicated when they are not. I've read an interesting sentence in one post on the forum nearby:

"Chomsky suggested that children have a built-in mechanism, which he called the Language Acquisition Device, or LAD, which pre-programs them to develop grammar based on the linguistic input they receive."

Although I don't know the context of this sentence,I understand that children have a knack for languages and all other mankind doesn't.That is,children have one device for automatic learning and when they grow up that LAD gadget break down and they are not able to automatically learn anymore,and they have to fetch grammar if they want to learn a language.
Here goes a few trillions of smiling smilies.That would make learning of language very much similar to "Star Wars" or so.I would say that people enjoy making miracles out of everything.Let me be allowed to advise you not to fall for that kind of reasoning.I mean "Look at me,I'm a miracle,I speak english gorgeuously and I don't have to learn grammar",that kind of reasoning.

As to the learning of a second language,I believe that circumstances in which the learner lives make a difference.First of all,the need to use the language daily,how much you read,how much you listen the language,which depends on his/her place of living,job, his/her affinities i.e personality,lifestyle etc.So,your learning situation and my learning situation are two different situations.More or less different.An immigrant who lives in the USA and is exposed to the english language daily,will need less grammar stuff to learn,and I need more to know about it.It is simple as that.And although,the learning of a language is pretty specific,still it doesn't mean that you don't need grammar at all.I mean you may not need a spade to dig a hole,you can dig it with your fingers,but you'll certainly find a spade helpful.If you know what I mean.Grammar gives the basis i.e the logic for learning.What grammar does is the analysis of the mechanics of a language(i.e cutting into pieces)and then put it together in the way which will make it easier to you to learn.By the way,I remember it from high school that analysis and synthesis are scientific methods in acquiring (any) knowledge.If you give proofs that it is just a useless entertainment for idle men then you'll make a scientific breakthrough,and not only in the field of language.Here goes one smiling smiley.

I think that if an ESL learner avoided confusion caused by different terminology for the same concepts (which is a major problem)and occasionaly manage to find some help when he is baffled(as it is possible from this forum for example) he'll find grammar helpful,and will not shy of it.And there is no reason for that since in essence it is not difficult,so you can read it even if you don't see its real value,and don't worry about your health,it will not put some special strain on your brain.Only when you read it and understand it you will know whether it is worth reading.
I think that Quirk gave neatly arranged structure for a correct acquisition of a language i.e its vocabulary. One can learn the bulk of the english language with the help of his grammar,of course paralelly with learning the vocabulary.Let's say 90% of it,and if somebody want to split hairs he may freely turn linguist,or if he want to learn some expression of Texas shepherds which he didn't understand and it gave him a headache,or solve logical puzzles in your leisure time,he can post a question on some forum.Or something.

Best regards

Velimir

Glad I can help!

<<<<Such concepts as tense, gerund, participle, clause (and classification thereof) are wihtout a slightest doubt useful and sometimes even essential to the learning of English (at least, this is so for me).

<<<Furthermore, I try to undrstand things logically and find explanations for every problem so that I won't have to simply memorize things! - I agree with you. However, I see room for tone and structure improvements!

Without taking side, I would like to share my 2 cents' worth. I always feel that if one is not born an English speaking native and his ultimate goal is to be able to write and speak English like a master, he is in for a long-agonizing journey. I have been at it for 20 years and still painfully working on getting it perfect. I realize that I often made careless errors, such as missing an "s" here and there and misspellong word etc. That, I think is something I have to work on but is tolerable to myself, as long as I know my speech and sentence structure are gramamtically sound and the meaning is getting across. For learners, it's extremely benifitial to possess a good understanding on all aspect of English, but in real life I dare say, many are not in that category, including natives. Frankly, more than a few don't even know and could care less what "past perfect tense" is. I don't mean to antagonize anyone. That's how I see it. That's said, learners must in time learn to develop a balance in learning. By that, I mean learning the fundanentals and applying them gramamtically correct in their writing without suffering from the"unnatural" sound. What I see is, many learners are too focused on the grammatical aspects and neglected on structure and tone, or vise vera. Ultimately, their writing is often compromised. I have been there. Believe me!

Hi Velimir.

I appreciate your agreeing  comments.  In part, I also agree with what you said. I must disclaim.  I have no higher ambition in the learning of English than to achieve a respectable fluency and to use English properly.  In all my professional and personal life, I have this philosophy which is never do anything just to get by and be the best I can be. Naturally, this perfectionism can be a problem in workplace because often what is acceptable to others seems sloppy to my expectation. In an ideal world everything should be balanced.  You are absolutely correct about every learner’s learning situation is different.  Different academic background, level of perseverance and endurance, will power and methods in which he uses in the learning all play a part in the success.  In my observations, I see many learners use the wrong approaches and methods.  I had mentioned several times in this forum.  We just can not learn good English properly with our brains still thinking in our own language.  However, this comes naturally and the hard part is to learn to think and live in English.  This adaptation does take time but it can be done. Once we feel comfortable with this transformation, we will find ourselves having to do less and less grammar and context translation from your own tongue to English.  As a result, the fluency will improve. For ESL level learners, the awkward sounding English is the result of this translation process.  Believe or not, watching “Discovery Channel” and BBC programs were the best thing I ever did during the first few years of my learning.  They helped shape my vocabulary, speech pattern and usage tremendously.  We all have our own opinions about how other people did with their English and often fail to recognize our own grammatical flaws, and that includes me. I believe in taking every opportunity to express myself in this acquired language to improve speech fluency and the ability to deliver thoughts and ideas.  I hope I am making sense and not boring people to tears!  Incidentally, you need a "space" between sentences and watch for puncutation and errors; if you don't mind  my pointing it out ...

Velimir wrote:

Hello Goodman, First,thank you for sharing your experience in learning.And thanks for the corrections you give,I really appreciate it. It is very helpful to have someone to point to errors in writing or speaking a language. In brief,my handicap is that I don't live and don't work surrounded with english.It is a great handicap.I don't have a chance to use what I know.To improve and correct my language.Moreover,I'm not much of a movie fan,so it is another handicap on my account.That's why the informal english is still a slippy terrain for me.But I'm gradually moving my focus towards it. To use your words,I am trying to achieve the balance in my learning.But I think I've written enough of it,I will not repeat myself.I think I know what I am to do to speed up the process of learning. Thank you again for inspiring discussion Best regards Velimir

Hi Velimir,

If it gives you any satisfaction, allow me to tell you that your English actually is quite good from my vantage point for someone who lives in a non-English speaking country.  You brought up a key point which I have emphasized before which is “exposure”.  For English speaking natives, this is not a problem until they learn another language.  For foreign learners, it’s extremely important because increased exposure actually helps to develop second-nature  English, just like native toddlers learning to speak. As long as learners are able to recognize their weaknesses in English and willing to humbly accept advice and constructive criticism in an effort to improve their language skills,  they will continue to see the positive difference in their speech and writing.  I can guarantee that and your are on the right track.

Keep it up!