Raymond    903389 Sun, 09 May 04 12:44 PM Dear all, I have some questions about how words are divided in dictionary entries. It seems to be an arbitrary business. For example, the word hyphenation is shown in most dictionaries as hy.phen.ation, whereas its actual syllabic division would be hy.phe.na.tion. Now, I would like to know if there is any guideline to follow when we are to divide words in writing, and if the divisions in the dictionaries are inflexible, i.e. invariable. I would appreciate your replies. Ray Raymond Hyphenation, Business, Careers, Punctuation

	Martin Ambuhl    903597 Sun, 09 May 04 07:09 PM "Dear all, I have some questions about how words are divided in dictionary entries. It seems to be an arbitrary ... divide words in writing, and if the divisions in the dictionaries are inflexible, i.e. invariable. I would appreciate your replies." When a dictionary shows hyphenation in the headword, it is using typographical conventions about how such a word might be divided in print. That is the reason that many dictionaries avoid separating very small syllables at the beginning or end of a word. The typographical conventions often do not match the phonetic division. In the case of "hyphenation," you are probably wrong. The pronunciation is /,haI fn- 'eI Sn-/. The second syllable is closed, and your claim that the "actual syllabic division would be hy.phe.na.tion" is true only for those who separate the from the root 'hyphen' and transfer it to the affix '-ation', saying /,haI f@ 'neI Sn-/. The fact that you have a different way of saying the word shows why pronunciation-based hyphenation is troublesome. Martin Ambuhl Phonetics, Pronunciation, Hyphenation, Speaking, Punctuation, Affix

	Raymond    904161 Mon, 10 May 04 04:24 AM "When a dictionary shows hyphenation in the headword, it is using typographical conventions about how such a word might be ... match the phonetic division. In the case of "hyphenation," you are probably wrong. The pronunciation is /,haI fn- 'eI Sn-/." I did not say the pronunciation is that way. I just said it is the way how the word is divided in most dictionaries. "... The second syllable is closed, and your claim that the "actual syllabic division would be hy.phe.na.tion" is true only for those who separate the from the root 'hyphen' and transfer it to the affix '-ation', saying /,haI f@ 'neI Sn-/." I think most, if not all, native speakers pronounce /neI/ as a syllable separate from /f@/. In fact, phoneticians divide syllables by first isolating the nucleus, then looking for the maximal number of preceding consonants permitted in a certain language as onset, and finally assiging the remaining consonants, if any, to the end of nucleus as coda. Therefore, the syllabified pronunciation I have given should be true for most cases, i.e. capturing the way native speakers pronounce the word. "The fact that you have a different way of saying the word shows whypronunciation-based hyphenation is troublesome." It is not that troublesome, since most speakers possess roughly the same intuition about their language. Specifically, they know how to divide words into syllables in more or less the same way. However, mastering the arbitrary typographical conventions, I believe, is far more troublesome. Raymond Phonetics, Pronunciation, Consonants, Hyphenation, Speaking, Writing, Punctuation, Languages, Affix, Numbers

	Martin Ambuhl    904225 Mon, 10 May 04 06:08 AM "I think most, if not all, native speakers pronounce /neI/ as a syllable separate from /f@/." If I try to pronounce hyphenation your way, it comes out as Haifa Nation. Since Jone15 & K&K, which deal only with pronunciation, disagree with you, as do the Oxford, Chambers, MW, and American Heritage dictionaries, my guess is that you are wrong. "It is not that troublesome, since most speakers possess roughly the same intuition about their language." Obviously it is one that you do not share, since you seem to be in disagreement with everyone about this word. Here's a clue: Raymond does not define the language. Martin Ambuhl Pronunciation, Hyphenation, Countries, United Kingdom, Great Britain, United States, American, Speaking, Punctuation, Languages

	Raymond    904400 Mon, 10 May 04 11:18 AM "If I try to pronounce hyphenation your way, it comes out as Haifa Nation. Since Jone15 & K&K, which deal ... you seem to be in disagreement with everyone about this word. Here's a clue: Raymond does not define the language." It seems that you have made am unsupported claim and know very litlle about English phonotactics. I have checked Oxford, Longman, and Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary, which all syllabify hyphenation as hy.phe.na.tion. Raymond Hyphenation, Countries, United Kingdom, Great Britain, Punctuation, Online, Languages

	Raymond    904409 Mon, 10 May 04 11:37 AM "Obviously it is one that you do not share, since you seem to be in disagreement with everyone about this word. Here's a clue: Raymond does not define the language." Obviously, you are too ready to criticize me for even the most trivial detail. Though I did not define 'languahe', that does not say I don't know the distinctions between dialects, idiolects, etc. Here, What I refer to by 'language' is the standard dialect(though this label is somehow controversial, as pointed by Victoria Fromkin et al. in Introduction to Language). Raymond Dialects, Languages

	Demetrius Zeluff    904426 Mon, 10 May 04 12:38 PM berlin.de: "I think most, if not all, native speakers pronounce /neI/ as a syllable separate from /f@/." "If I try to pronounce hyphenation your way, it comes out as Haifa Nation." Instead of what? "Hai fenna shun" ?? Kill-filers: My screen name changes, My email address doesn't. Demetrius Zeluff Hyphenation, Punctuation

	J. W. Love    904448 Mon, 10 May 04 01:01 PM Raymond told Martin: "It seems that you have made am unsupported claim and know very litlle about English phonotactics. I have checked Oxford, Longman, and Merriam- Webster Online Dictionary, which all syllabify hyphenation as hy.phe.na.tion." Curiously in view of this statement, the print version of the Merriam-Webster Collegiate, ninth edition, breaks it in three places: hy.phen.ation. Which, for the second syllable, is about as close as standard spelling can get, since native speakers of AmE in colloquial situations usually pronounce it more like (fn) than like (fE) and (f@). However, the dictionary isn't syllabifying the words: it's showing you where to break words at the ends of lines: "The centered dots within entry words indicate division points at which a hyphen may be put at the end of a line of print or writing" (MWCD9, p. 11). How does the print version of MWCD11 break the word? J. W. Love Spelling, Hyphenation, Countries, United Kingdom, Great Britain, Writing, Punctuation, Online, Languages

	dcw    904450 Mon, 10 May 04 01:16 PM "Curiously in view of this statement, the print version of the Merriam-Webster Collegiate, ninth edition, breaks it in three places: hy.phen.ation." The Oxford Minidictionary of Spelling gives the division points as "hy=phena-tion", where "=" means a "less recommended division (mainly for work in narrow measures)". But British hyphenation rules are different from American. (The erratum "for il=lit=ter-ate read il=lit=er-ate" may not inspire confidence in this dictionary.) David dcw Spelling, Hyphenation, Countries, United Kingdom, Great Britain, United States, American, Writing, Punctuation