Anonymous  +  122471 Fri, 29 Jul 05 07:47 PM Hello. I was reading about the difference between the two schwa's, and I noticed that there's major disparity among many sites in categorizing Λ (the stressed schwa). For instance, wikipedia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-mid_back_unrounded_vowel ) lists it under 'back vowel,' and this site ( http://www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett/shwa.htm ) has it under 'central vowel.' So which one has it correctly? I'd imagine if they were both cetral vowels, it'd be hard to hear the difference. I'd appreciate your input on this subject. Thank you Anonymous Vowels, Difference Between

	Mister Micawber  +  122827 Sun, 31 Jul 05 12:55 PM Without coming up with a reference, I'll tell you offhand that I teach them both as open central vowels, with no difference in pronunciation except force and length of utterance. Celce-Murcia in her admittedly summary summary of the English vowel system (sorry, I don't remember which book I sketched it from) presents them under a single symbol. Mister Micawber Joined on Wed, Aug 4 2004 Yokohama Veteran Member 30,788 'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master-- that's all.' Vowels, Pronunciation

	LanguageLover  +  122934 Mon, 01 Aug 05 01:57 AM However, it is considered to be a back vowel in phonetics, at least according to the IPA (http://www.yorku.ca/earmstro/ipa/vowels.html , if you mouse-over the sounds the features appear). It's pronounced the same as the vowel in "all"(Br), turned c, just it is unrounded. You're right, I found another site considering it be a central. But I think the IPA has to be relied on. LanguageLover Joined on Fri, Feb 25 2005 Contributing Member 1,507 The similarities among the languages are more than their differences! Vowels, Phonetics

	Klavier  +  124538 Sat, 06 Aug 05 06:51 PM  Mister Micawber wrote: Without coming up with a reference, I'll tell you offhand that I teach them both as open central vowels, with no difference in pronunciation except force and length of utterance. Hi MrM. This means that they have the same sound? I think I have trouble understanding the words phoneme, sound and pronunciation, they seem to be different but similar at the same time. Books of grammar and dictionaries say that english language has fairly 42 sounds, but are there also more forms of pronunciation? It is said that the p phoneme could have three or more different pronunciations. Are the dictionaries wrong? Klavier Joined on Thu, Sep 23 2004 Chile Full Member 357 "If I have seen further, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants" Isaac Newton Vowels, Pronunciation, Grammar

	Mister Micawber  +  124665 Sun, 07 Aug 05 12:38 PM I am not a phonologist, Latin.  I am just offering what I know practically. From the dictionary, a phoneme is a basic sound unit, expressed with standard symbols like /æ/, /ə/, /θ/, or /ŋ/. Sound and pronunciation, I suppose, are less scientific words for how we hear and say a phoneme.  Here is what one author has to say: "A phoneme is not a sound, but instead a class of sounds. Different speakers make different actual sounds when articulating the same phoneme, but competent speakers of the language recognize these different sounds as representing "the same thing." It is perhaps easiest to think of a phoneme as a rule for articulating a sound of the spoken language. Different speakers of English will produce different actual sounds when articulating the word the, but the vocal organs of all physiologically normal speakers will perform similar motions." (William E. Rogers of the English Department at Furman University) Three /p/s?  I think they differentiate between, for example, the fully plosive /p/ of Help!, the stopped /p/ of second helping, and hmm-- I don't have a phonetics book-- perhaps the weak /p/ in a word like helpmate. Are these different /p/s?  Well, in one sense no, because they are written as the single phoneme.  On the other hand, they are realized in different native pronunciations which, though they seem vague or subtle to you and me, are of interest to phonologists, because they are not individual variations (as Dr. Rogers speaks of), but recurring ones, dependent on the juxtaposition of other phonemes.   Practically speaking, however, the plosive /p/ is fully intelligible in all the above words-- Help, second helping, and helpmate.  And there is nothing 'wrong' with it in those positions.  After all, phonemes are simply descriptions of the flow of native speech.  I'm sure that there are a range of numbers of distinct phonemes assigned to the English language-- 42, 44, 46, depending on the authority--, but I don't think there is an objectively 'correct' set. Mister Micawber Pronunciation, Phonetics, Universities

	LanguageLover  +  124713 Sun, 07 Aug 05 03:55 PM Hi Latin, MM has explained it well. I'd like just to add the following. As MM clarified, we have more than one sound that represents /p/. If you pronounce these /p/s in positions where they are not normally pronounced (for example, a weak /p/ instead of a strong /p/or vice versa), we won't have a different phoneme (they are allaphones, variations of a phoneme), since there is no new word pronounced. Sometimes, it may seem odd to our ears to hear these mistakes, and sometimes the changes are so little that we won't even  notice them. For example, the /k/ sound in "car" is pronounced at the back of our mouth. If I pronounce it in a more front position, a native speaker will understand me, just will get the feeling that I am a foreigner! So, as long as it doesn't end up with a different word, it's just another variotion. And another thing: phoneme is an abstract concept, it exists in our mind (to categorise the sounds of a language), but sound is real, you can record it in a waveform that changes if you try to pronounce it again, or if another person utters it. I hope that it could help you a bit, LanguageLover

	CalifJim  +  125163 Tue, 09 Aug 05 06:27 AM Is there really such a thing as a stressed schwa?  I think that's a very confusing use of terminology.  All schwas are unstressed.  You may have a stressed "lax u" as in "mutton", but, being stressed, it can hardly be called a schwa, can it?  Furthermore, there is no single unstressed schwa in English.  "schwa" is the name for many indistinct unstressed central vowel sounds, which vary according to context.  Some schwas are closer to lax u; others are closer to lax i; and so on.  Before "n" or "s" it is sometimes difficult to say whether the schwa is closer to the one or the other.  "nation" may be said more like "nay-shin" or more like "nay-shun" depending on the speaker.  Likewise, "bonus" may be said more like "boe-niss" or more like "boe-nuss" depending on the speaker. (My two cents.) Jim CalifJim Joined on Mon, Aug 2 2004 California Veteran Member 22,393 "There are no facts, only interpretations" - Nietzsche Vowels

	LanguageLover  +  125255 Tue, 09 Aug 05 01:44 PM CJ is right, we do not have stressed schwa! LanguageLover

	Pemmican  +  130412 Wed, 24 Aug 05 11:42 PM  CalifJim wrote: Is there really such a thing as a stressed schwa?  I think that's a very confusing use of terminology.  All schwas are unstressed.  You may have a stressed "lax u" as in "mutton", but, being stressed, it can hardly be called a schwa, can it?  Furthermore, there is no single unstressed schwa in English.  "schwa" is the name for many indistinct unstressed central vowel sounds, which vary according to context.  Some schwas are closer to lax u; others are closer to lax i; and so on.  Before "n" or "s" it is sometimes difficult to say whether the schwa is closer to the one or the other.  "nation" may be said more like "nay-shin" or more like "nay-shun" depending on the speaker.  Likewise, "bonus" may be said more like "boe-niss" or more like "boe-nuss" depending on the speaker. (My two cents.) Jim   How many Schwa sounds are there actually?   As far as I know there's only one in English, isn't there? The a-sound in "a-go", in IPA represented by an upside down "e". German has another Schwa, usually in words that end in "-er", in IPA this sound is represented by an upside down "a"   Now that I think about it, the Englisch u-sound as in "butter" or "jump" indeed is close to the German Schwa-a, although it is stressed...   Do you know of any more Schwas? Maybe in other languages?! Pemmican Joined on Thu, Aug 21 2003 Regular Member 569 Wâ mag ich mich nu vinden? wâ mac ich mich nu suochen, wâ? nu bin ich hie und bin ouch dâ und enbin doch weder dâ noch hie. wer wart ouch sus verirret ie? wer wart ie sus... Vowels