[title]Family quotes[/title] [description]Welcome to our family quotes section! Here you'll find some of the funniest (and wisest) quotes on the subject of family life![/description]
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shaved  +  557662 Fri, 22 Aug 08 05:42 PM
 ok, didn't expect such a response to what I posted...

 I'll try to handle each reaction one at a time.

Dew 2007
“It's quite all right when we speak of liberty. And the law.
Unfortunately the US politics tries to IMPOSE its kind of liberty on other nations and thinks it's the only way it should be.
But the Americal understanding of liberty is not the only for all the people.

I remember the thread where we tried to speak about the Muslim women having to wear hijab...
We thought it wrong. But our Muslim women persuaded us that it's all right with them and they are happy.”

 Muslim women will never persuade me that it is right to force them to do, wear, or say anything because it is never right to force innocent people to dehumanize themselves and cut them off from the right to express themselves through their clothing.  Educated Muslim women who have immigrated to western free nations, for the most part, give up the hijab. Even those who don't give it uphave to admit that the fact that it becomes THEIR CHOICE is the important thing.

 

Dew 2007
“Why think that everything US politicians do is right and was always right?

I'd rather stick to the opinion that everything US do has got only one purpose - to support the interests of the US everywhere.
Every country pursues such a policy. What I am really against of is the way they do it.”

 Nobody should be arguing that US politicians never make mistakes. My argument is that our goals are far more benign than any other major power that has ever 'intervened' in human history. It's all well and good to argue that the US isn't perfect and that our intervention causes suffering, but by comparison to every major power in the history of the world, we are the hegemony with the softest touch the world has ever seen.

You really want to argue that other countries intervene with less bloodshed?

You really think that other countries intervene with more concern about the civilian population at risk?

Provide examples of hegemonic powers that have been greater champions of law, liberty, free markets, human dignity, and free press than the US, and then your argument will have more credibility in my eyes.  Until then, your comments paint you as someone who doesn't understand the difference between the AP and Pravda.

 

Joined on Fri, Apr 11 2008
Southern California
Junior Member 93
FOR ALL INTENSIVE PURPOSES NEVER LICK A GIFT HORSE IN THE MOUTH
shaved  +  557669 Fri, 22 Aug 08 06:07 PM
Ruslana
“What made you think that your human brothers and sisters suffer from the ignorance and oppression? ”
 

The vast majority of the world lives in the worst kind of abject poverty you can imagine. That poverty is imposed upon them through violence and leads to terrible ignorance, as they don't have access to quality libraries, the internet, or affordable education.

Many of those who live above that poverty line outside of the West live in nations in which the free press doesn't have access. State-run news agencies in nations where opposition journalists disappear in the dead of night or are imprisoned for speaking their minds do not count as legitimate sources of information. They are obvious propaganda machines.  The 'informed' in Russia, China, and a few other nations with similar information structures are still massively ignorant by western standards because the media available to them is filtered, cleansed, and sanitised. 

More importantly, these people are not invited to scritinize the news they receive. They are, in fact, forbidden, in many cases, from doing just that.  By this measure, they are not free, they are not informed, and they are not given the rights and freedoms they deserve as human beings.

Ruslana
“Was extirpating of the American Indians (the Reds, native inhabitants of North America) a part of this liberty experiment? 

At the time of their extirpation, as you put it, they were not considered eligible.  Over time, we have expanded just who is refered to in our pledge of allegience when we say 'and liberty and justice for all. "All" used to not include women, the Irish, Jews, even Catholics. Ethnic cleansing has been a human reality for thousands if not millions of years. But....

We've grown TREMENDOUSLY as a society in terms of our understanding of the liberty that we seek for everyone over the last 200+ years. Has the US made mistakes? Does it have spots on its record? You better believe it does. But by comparison to so many other nations, ours are so very minor.

But the important thing is this: We admit that they were mistakes. We admit that our society is a work in progress. We invite criticism and debate from our own people as well as from people of other nations.

 That is a substantial difference between our society and so many others.

 

Ruslana
“What is the status of the American Indians in the USA now?”

Their reservations are officially 'Dependant Nations.' Their people have every right that any other American has and more.

Dew 2007  +  557675 Fri, 22 Aug 08 06:22 PM
The 'informed' in Russia, China, and a few other nations with similar information structures are still massively ignorant by western standards because the media available to them is filtered, cleansed, and sanitised. ”


In the last few days filters were really working the different way.

In all your words I can understand a very important thing - You are too sure in your superiority - and whatever is said to contradict it will not be accepted as you are the best, the greatest, the ...-est in the world and you think that only you are right. because all the rest are so MINOR, so IGNORANT of liberty and freedom that they may be killed, just because they don't suit your theory...
Thanks for your explanation.
Joined on Sun, Jun 17 2007
Russia
Contributing Member 1,352
Keep wondering!
shaved  +  557676 Fri, 22 Aug 08 06:25 PM
Ruslana
“ I do not have anything against Americans themselves (American people, American citizens, American national pride, American flag, North America continent, dollar, the American English, and all other stuff like that related to America! (phew) Phew ) but I simply don't like the USA government actions, along with Bush & Condoleezza Rice, and their puppets such as  Saakashvili & Yushchenko? ”
 

 I'm sorry you feel that way.

But here's something that a lot of the world doesn't understand about freedom, liberty, and representation.

I am an American.

I am my government. 

When you tell me that you like Americans but not their government, what you're really saying is this: "I feel sorry for you that you have to live under a terribly oppressive regime that acts in your name without your approval." My response is this: "You realy don't understand how this country works, do you?"

 If you think Saakashvili and Yushchenko are really puppets, what do you think about the governments before them that the popular representative movements ousted? Were those the will of the Ukrainian and Georgian people?

The answer is 'no', and you know that.  Just because many Eastern European nations have thrown the Russians out and have tried to cozy up to the West for military and economic support doesn't mean that they are puppets.  The fact that the Soviets oppressed them so hard for so many years is the driving force behind their desire for liberty. And they truly fear the Russians, for good reason.

Condoleezza Rice is a shining example of the freedom, liberty, and human dignity that this nation stand for. You may not like her, but she does a hell of a job as the toughest diplomat in the West.

shaved  +  557678 Fri, 22 Aug 08 06:32 PM
Lawyee
“I must agree that Shaved is not talking about the present situation of the world but about the situation at least 15 years ago.”
 

I'm not excluding Iraq from what I said (or any other action for that matter).

The US has not taken a wrong turn on our road to liberty and justice for all. We've just hit a rough spot on the road itself. 

Dew 2007  +  557681 Fri, 22 Aug 08 07:05 PM
Were those the will of the Ukrainian and Georgian people?”


Don't make me laugh.
Don't you remember how it was done& Both Saakashvilli and Yushchenko lost the elections/ then they blamed the commissions of not being right and unleashed the unrest in the country and finally somehow the number of votes changed.

There must have been a lot of money spent on bribery...Neither Ukraine nor Georgia had it. I wonder whose they were?
shaved  +  557685 Fri, 22 Aug 08 07:31 PM
Dew 2007
“Don't make me laugh.
Don't you remember how it was done& Both Saakashvilli and Yushchenko lost the elections/ then they blamed the commissions of not being right and unleashed the unrest in the country and finally somehow the number of votes changed.

There must have been a lot of money spent on bribery...Neither Ukraine nor Georgia had it. I wonder whose they were?”
 

It's not a laughing matter. The authoritarian, Russian-backed governments fell apart, and elections were held. The Russians tried to assasinate Yushchenko with poison, if you don't remember. They failed. 

Their attempt to derail the process and rig the elections came under immense scrutiny from around the world. International mediators and observers came in to authenticate the recount, and yes, miraculously, Yushchenk did have the most votes.  If you want to claim that the US bribed people so that he would win, that's fine.

But I think that a much more supportable claim is that Russian intelligence (former KGB) tried really hard to rig that election and even kill the pro-western candidate (Yushchenko made this claim at the time, and his physical appearance at innauguration is evidence of what he went through). And when it became obvious that international attention was needed in order for the Ukrainians to get a fair result that reflected the actual vote, the world responded.

And in the end, liberty won.

 

I can't say I know much about the circumstances behind Saakashvilli's rise to power, so I won't comment on that specifically.


Goodman  +  557687 Fri, 22 Aug 08 07:34 PM

There is no argument, the US today is very different than a decade ago in many aspects. Because of the  progressive elements  which most of us have an idea  who they are,  we have lost a lot of American pride, culture, language and border.  If you don’t see it, how about allowing me to give a few examples. We have  DMV applicants who obtained licenses without knowing basic English and worse yet with fake identity.  Do we have border problems, besides health care and education  costs .  Oh yeah, the word “tolerance” has been tossed about a lot in recent years. What that mean is changing our way of life to accommodate the demands of the progressive movements.  Remember  the  middle eastern woman applying for a driver’s license in Miami and asked was asked to remove her veil for the picture.  We have  to remove our hat to take a picture .Why did she think she is so special?  And who got involved on her behalf ?

I give you one guess. If you didn’t get it,  this may help:  http://commonsensepoliticalthought.com/?p=2458

United  States of America has bent over backward to immigrants to help them settle in their new country.  The problem I have seen is that some of the immigrants are bring their own third-world traditions and try to emulate them into the western culture, and when we resist them, then we are labeled as “intolerant” and  prejudicious. A decade ago,  English was the only language used when you call any public establishment, i.e. hospital, school, or utility company; now we have to maneuver a ridiculous menu to get to select just because you are speaking English.  Honestly speaking,  I don’t believe this is the America George Washington and Benjamin Franklin had envisioned. If  they are alive today,  they would have a different plan.  I think we are following the footsteps of some of the European countries because we are becoming overly tolerant and liberal with the immigration laws and turning a blind eye on the border, US citizen will become the minority.  Take me for instance, my wife an I have to pay $700 a month for medical insurance should be lose our jobs. For the illegal aliens, they are getting the benefits free; well not really, but at the expenses of the tax payers. It’s ironic. We talked about freedom and liberty, but that not what I meant.

 

My last comment is, for those who came to the US for a change to the better life  and living environment, I have a question for them. If the US is so bad to you, please pack you bag and go back to where you came from. And don’t let the door hit you on the way out.

 

Joined on Mon, Nov 7 2005
Senior Member 3,816
The name says it all!
Ruslana  +  557692 Fri, 22 Aug 08 08:00 PM
shaved
“The vast majority of the world lives in the worst kind of abject poverty you can imagine. ”


What sources of information made you think so?

shaved
“The 'informed' in Russia, China, and a few other nations with similar information structures are still massively ignorant by western standards because the media available to them is filtered, cleansed, and sanitised.
By this measure, they are not free, they are not informed, and they are not given the rights and freedoms they deserve as human beings.

Do you know Russian & Chinese languages fluently to have a possibility of reading and watching Russian (Chinese) mass media directly?  

shaved
Ruslana
“Was extirpating of the American Indians (the Reds, native inhabitants of North America) a part of this liberty experiment? 

At the time of their extirpation, as you put it, they were not considered eligible.”


Please correct me if I made you out wrong: the greatest liberty experiment of humanity started from the presumtion that some small nations were "ineligible"?

shaved
Ruslana
“What is the status of the American Indians in the USA now?”

Their reservations are officially 'Dependant Nations.' Their people have every right that any other American has and more.



Do you mean that the aspiration for giving liberty to small nations led to dependence of these nations?

shaved
“But here's something that a lot of the world doesn't understand about freedom, liberty, and representation.

I am an American.

I am my government. 



Oh my gosh, Shaved, do you consider yourself Mr Bush?
Until the majority of American people claim and wholly agree with this statement of yours (by means of a poll or whatever), I believe it should be taken it as your own oddity.

By the way, you HAVE NOT answered the question about the USA debt. Please do that.
Talking about economic strength of the USA, has your government already paid off its enormous external debt of over 9 billion dollars (for comparison, the USA GDP averaged 13 billion dollars in 2006) and solved its problem of being insolvent?

Joined on Sat, Dec 17 2005
Senior Member 3,688
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