RayH

“
Still, I'm going to have to insist that you provide more that a casual claim supported by nothing more that the word of terrorists that torture is routinely engaged in at Gitmo. And while you're at it, since you have so much knowledge of what happens at Gitmo, what exactly are the names of the victims and the torturers, how many victims are there, when were they tortured, and what exactly was done to them. I'm sure you have details that I haven't thought of which I hope you will provide as well.

Do you have any sources besides terrorists to support your claims?

One other thing. I didn't ask you for the dictionary definition of torture, I'm not so stupid that I can't look it up for myself, I asked you for your definition of torture. What do you consider to be torture, what do you picture happening at Gitmo when you make that claim, what do you imagine taking place during a Gitmo torture session.

”

Unfortunately the USA refuses to allow outsiders to find out about the names of the torturers. After being released from Guantanamo, many of the victims have spoken about their treatment in public. Amnesty International has discussed Guantanamo and its illegal prisoners. This quotation is from Amnesty's website:

Survivors of torture and other ill-treatment in Guantánamo Bay spoke at a conference hosted by Amnesty International (AI) and Reprieve. For several, this was the first time they had seen each other since their release. For two of them, it was the first time they had met, even though they had been held in neighbouring cages.

Eight UK nationals told their stories of how they ended up in Guantánamo and the horrors they endured. In stark contrast to US President George Bush's assertion that the USA does not torture, Moazzam Begg, a UK national who was held in the US-run detention centre, said that "torture does happen, it continues to happen, and it destroys lives."

He and other former detainees spoke of being shackled in painful stress positions, their extreme fear and exhaustion, the lack of medical care, the beatings and broken bones. They highlighted how the rule of law was denied to those in Guantánamo. One reported that, on arrival, he was told by a US soldier "you have no rights to make a phone call, to see a lawyer, to do anything except what we tell you."

With torture thriving in secrecy and the US government blocking meaningful access to Guantánamo, Clive Stafford Smith, Legal Director of Reprieve, said, "if we open Guantánamo up, they will have to close it down."
 

You can read more about it here. You can see and hear a chief state terrorist approve of a torture method called water boarding here. Read more about this method of torture here.

I'll provide more details the moment the USA reveals them. As the prison in Guantanamo is illegal, it is understandable that the USA wants the world to know as little as possible about it.

It is obvious from my previous post that I agree with the dictionary definition of 'torture.'

CB

On September 16, 2004Kofi Annan, the Secretary General of the United Nations, said of the invasion, "I have indicated it was not in conformity with the U.N. charter. From our point of view, from the charter point of view, it was illegal."


There are always two elements involved in any disputes concerning human rights and politics which are the perceived truth and the distorted truth.  Often times, one is disguised, or represented as the other to confuse those who lack the ability to make their own adjustments. Speaking of truth of the latter kind, two organizations stand out clearly to my mind of  which I will take with no greater than a grain of salt as they are extremely “progressive” (another word for liberal). And they are The ACLU and Amnesty International, among other organizations with special agendas. They would take a stand  to protest in front of San Quinton to speak out for the rights of the criminals and to save them from facing the execution of electrical chair over the right of the victims of the families hurt by these thugs. Whatever the issues are, if they don’t approve of them, then they must be violations of human rights  There are laws of the society required to maintain civil order. But the laws must make sense to and for the majority, rather than the minority. By that I mean, we can’t not create or make laws to cater to the special group or interest because of distorted facts. It’s fun this name came up. If we look deeper into the history of Kofi Annan, we would find that he has many questionable dealings of corruptive nature, including his own son’s scandal. So I wouldn’t give him the time of day, and his credibility? I leave it to your imagination.

Avangi

“Somehow I never got the impression that death equals restitution in this country.  OJ was sued in civil court by the father of one of his alleged vitims, and won a cash award for "wrongful death."  But murder as such is a crime against the state, and the death penalty is not considered restitution. 

”

Hi Avangi

There have been considerable changes in applying the death penalty in the US. By coincidence, I noticed an old news item relating to it in today's Helsingin Sanomat, Scandinavia's biggest daily newspaper. They have a special section entitled "News Fifty Years Ago."

(AFP) A 55-year-old Negro Jimmy Wilson will face an electric chair in Montgomery, Alabama on September 5 because he has robbed a white woman of 1.95 dollars. Only the State Govenor of Alabama can pardon him but the Supreme Court has already confirmed the sentence. 

...

The penalty for robbery is capital punishment in Alabama.

This has nothing to do with Guantanamo or any other contemporary events. I just couldn't resist the temptation to quote the old news, off topic though it is. I assume stealing two dollars doesn't take one to an electric chair these days.

To Goodman: Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and Reporters Without Borders are organizations held in high regard in countries that respect human rights and don't exercise torture in their jails. I fully understand that a conservative American finds them less than perfect. (Such a conservative also thinks 95 percent of Finns are either Socialists or Communists, by the way.)

Because no one taken to Guantanamo has any rights  -  and anyone the US authorities suspect of "terrorism" can be taken there  -  I wouldn't dare to set foot on US soil at the moment. For a tourist, the USA is more dangerous than the Soviet Union used to be. In that country only its own citizens needed to fear being taken to prison camps. Stalin had at least 15 million Soviets executed and times were bad for the locals even after him. However, a tourist had nothing to fear in the USSR. There wasn't even the slightest chance that a foreigner could be arrested on any false charges  -  let alone without charges.

Going to the USSR involved a lot of red tape but the country had absolutely no prisons where foreigners were kept for years without being charged with anything.

I find it utterly amusing and ludicrous that George W. Bush should discuss human rights in China with Chinese leaders, something he did a week ago in China. That proves how self-contained the leader of a superpower can be. No doubt Bush believes everything he says. A president with such a limited vision and understanding and a large nuclear arsenal at his disposal is a big threat to world peace.

CB

and the death penalty is not considered restitution.  That is, the family members of a murder victim don't have special rights to a convicted murderer's death.  Prosecutors typically consult the families during penalty phase hearings in the trial, but I think this is as a courtesy, not as a right.

As I mention in my last thread, the perceived truth and distorted truth often make you a conservative or liberal in the political world. But murder as such is a crime against the state,  It may be true, But the state is prosecuting murder cases on the people’s behalf, and if you are so unfortunate being selected as a victim by these scum of the society,  don’t you feel you have a right to pursuit justice??  Human rights should have been striped from these vermin of the society, but to the liberal minds. So what do we do with these thugs?

We build state-of-the art facility to house them. Oh of course, don’t forget to install flat panel TV’s, computers and fancy gym equipments.  In case anyone is interested, California’s 2008 budget to maintain these facility and support the living of these criminals exceeds 10 billions which the Governor threatens to cut.  But you know what, some people believed the current prisons are too crowded which is inhuman to the prisoners. Mind you, 0ver 30% of the serious criminals are illegals, but that’s another subject all together. 

With prison life this comfortable, does one ever wonder, is this really punishment or reward for the crimes they perpetrated?  That is the difference between liberal minds and how conservative ones.  The victim’s right  and feelings are less considered than those who have carried out the crimes.

George Herbert Walker Bush used to be a card-carrying member of the ACLU??    Is ther eany suprise that Politicans change their affiliation? To me, I rather trust a street thug than I do a lawer whih is as tep below a politician in the world of deceit and manipulation of truth and justice.

and the death penalty is not considered restitution.  That is, the family members of a murder victim don't have special rights to a convicted murderer's death.  Prosecutors typically consult the families during penalty phase hearings in the trial, but I think this is as a courtesy, not as a right.

  Family members have "special" rights to restitution in civil court, but I believe if you wish to find legal recognition of "an eye for an eye," you'll need to go to a muslim country, or possibly do a favor for "The Godfather.".   ----I think this is a twisted view. No Avangi, they will take both of our eyes without reasons, even if you haven't touched any  one of thiers.

Hi Avangi,

Something tells me that you are probably a reasonable man with good morals and perhaps a bit too much mercy for the good and the bad.  I am a man with Christian belief, but that does not mean I can’t have my own thoughts. Justice is not the same as “an eye for an eye”, and even so,  there is mentioning of that in the Old Testament. To me,  what you just stated is the distorted truth as I had described. My comments were not directed toward “budging” you or change your view toward the world or the criminal system, rather, to point out the flaws of our criminal justice system.  In many developing or developed Asian countries aside from China, such as Singapore, Korea and Japan, Capital punishment seems to have an effect in curbing certain type of serious crimes. But even with capital punishment in some States, the inmates on death row often keep living for 2 decades or more before they are executed. Killing somebody is never good. I am not advocating death. But if you are a religious person, remember this,  God will reward us with something if we do good and likewise, he will punish us when we do evil things. By your statement, aren’t you saying God is carrying out the “an eye for an eye restitution.