Yoong Liat  +  281056 Sun, 15 Oct 06 05:08 AM In the following sentence, should 'finished' be used instead of 'had finished'?  He had finished the book last night before John came in. [I know that when time is stated (in this case 'last night'), we should not use the past perfect tense. Instead we use the simple past tense] as in the following sentence.  A stray dog killed my kitten last night. Yoong Liat Joined on Mon, Sep 4 2006 Veteran Member 6,757 Tenses, Past Perfect, Simple Past, Past Tenses

	Clive  +  281063 Sun, 15 Oct 06 05:20 AM Hi,  should 'finished' be used instead of 'had finished'? Yes, in this example.   I know that when time is stated (in this case 'last night'), we should not use the past perfect tense. In other contexts, I'd hesitate to agree with this very general statement. eg Last night, when I arrived at John's apartment, he had taken 20 sleeping pills. I called an ambulance. Clive Joined on Thu, Oct 28 2004 Canada Veteran Member 29,612 El tango argentino es un pensamiento triste que se puede bailar (The tango argentino is a sad thought which can be danced) Enrique Santos Discépolo Tenses, Past Perfect

	CalifJim  +  281084 Sun, 15 Oct 06 07:09 AM <<I know that when time is stated (in this case 'last night'), we should not use the past perfect tense.>> No.  You mean present perfect tense. The same does not apply to the past perfect tense. CJ CalifJim Joined on Mon, Aug 2 2004 California Veteran Member 22,399 "There are no facts, only interpretations" - Nietzsche Tenses, Past Perfect, Present Perfect

	Yoong Liat  +  281104 Sun, 15 Oct 06 08:55 AM  CalifJim wrote: <<I know that when time is stated (in this case 'last night'), we should not use the past perfect tense.>> No.  You mean present perfect tense. The same does not apply to the past perfect tense. CJ He had finished the book last night before John came in. (The past perfect tense refers to this sentence.) Yoong Liat Tenses, Past Perfect, Present Perfect

	J Lewis  +  281106 Sun, 15 Oct 06 09:03 AM He finished the book last night before John came in. Here I would not use had because the conjunction before already establishes the sequence. If we change to when, then we need the past perfect, otherwise it might seem that he finished the book in the same instant as John came in, or even as a result of John's return. So: He had finished the book last night when John came in. This was the situation that existed when John arrived. J Lewis Joined on Tue, Sep 5 2006 Italy Regular Member 518 Past Perfect

	CalifJim  +  281381 Mon, 16 Oct 06 12:01 AM You'll be hard pressed to prove that main clauses never contain the past perfect when a before-clause is also present.  In other words, it happens all the time.  Why is that if before already establishes the time reference?  Are all those writers wrong? CJ CalifJim Clauses, Past Perfect

	J Lewis  +  281566 Mon, 16 Oct 06 10:29 AM CJ, I think you're fighting imaginary enemies! I only expressed what sounds right to me, and why, in this particular sentence. I don't want to proclaim any universal rules. You say I'd be hard-pressed to prove etc: I wouldn't even try! He had finished the book last night before John came in is not an abomination, but from my point of view as to style I consider the past perfect superfluous in this case. Are all those writers wrong? No, I'm not saying that. The point is: do you at least agree that the sentences I quote are correct (without excluding other possibilities)? JL J Lewis Past Perfect

	CalifJim  +  281796 Mon, 16 Oct 06 06:34 PM fighting imaginary enemies No!  It was more like teasing!  I suppose I should have put a smiley after that post.  I guess I'm wondering if -- again from the viewpoint of style -- you would ever find the past perfect necessary in such a pattern with before -- in spite of your reluctance to proclaim universal truths!  For example, I'm wondering if the presence of a word like already triggers our desire to use a past perfect.  Or what other factors enter into the decision.  Hmmm.  He had already done XYZ before ...  vs.  He already did XYZ before ... CJ CalifJim Past Perfect