W is a vowel

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#512580 Sun, 11 May 08 11:06 PM

Forbes
If we accept that, and consider the words "how" and "thou" we have to accept that the <w> and <u> have exactly the same function. No one will agree that in "thou" <u> operates to represent a consonant and accordingly it must be conceded that in "how" <w> does not operate to represent a consonant either.

no, what is happening there is that the sound produced by both dipthongs (<ou> and <ow>) is the same

the letter <w> represents (1) half of the <ow> dipthong, and (2) the consonant sound we hear in the word <wax>

It is a consonant. Just because a letter represents half of a dipthong sometimes does not mean that it all of a sudden becomes a semivowel.

<y> is a semivowel because the letter represents (1) the consonant sound we hear in the word <yard>, and (2) the vowel sound we hear in the word <sky>

It's not just half of a dipthong sometimes, it's a full vowel when used that way.

I'm sorry if I'm being contrary, but this is something that has bothered me since my descriptive linguistics class in college.

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Consonants, Vowels

Forbes

#513080 Tue, 13 May 08 11:32 AM

I think the problem here is that <w> is not used in quite the same way as <y>. Whilst one can have forms such as "sky" and "funny", forms such as "skw" and "funnw" are not found. When used in words such as "cow" <w> is behaving exactly like the <y> in "coy" - it represents the second element of a falling dipthong. Whilst opinions may differ on whether the first elements in rising dipthongs as found in "yam" and "won" are semi-vowels or (short) vowels, I do not think any phonetician will analyse the second element of a falling dipthong as a semi-vowel.

Forbes

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Vowels

shaved

#513189 Tue, 13 May 08 04:24 PM

then we agree..

<w> is not a vowel.. it's not even a semivowel

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Vowels

Forbes

#514108 Thu, 15 May 08 05:56 PM

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then we agree..
<w> is not a vowel.. it's not even a semivowel

Are you sure? Smile

I think that:

(a) In writing <w> can function as a vowel sign (as in "cow") and as a semi-consonant (as in "won")

(b) in (English) speech /w/ is a semi-consonant, by which I mean a vowel-like sound that functions as a consonant but never appears at the end of a syllable.

Do you agree?

Forbes

Consonants, Vowels

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#514125 Thu, 15 May 08 06:26 PM

Forbes

Are you sure?

I think that:

(a) In writing <w> can function as a vowel sign (as in "cow") and as a semi-consonant (as in "won")

(b) in (English) speech /w/ is a semi-consonant, by which I mean a vowel-like sound that functions as a consonant but never appears at the end of a syllable.

Do you agree?

(a) I'm sure that in the word 'cow,' <w> is not functioning as a vowel. It is functioning as half a dipthong.

(b) I really don't think that /w/ is a vowel-like sound at all... think of the difference in pronunciation between the word 'shah' and the name 'Shaw'. It's a subtle difference, but they produce different sounds. The /h/ and the /w/ are functioning like "soft" consonants. In other words, neither of them can be pronounced without attaching a vowel sound to them, hence CONsonants

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Consonants, Pronunciation, Vowels

Alienvoord

#514189 Thu, 15 May 08 09:59 PM

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(b) I really don't think that /w/ is a vowel-like sound at all... think of the difference in pronunciation between the word 'shah' and the name 'Shaw'. It's a subtle difference, but they produce different sounds.

In my dialect these are identical, but in some dialects they are different vowels. I believe that for some Americans, one is /A/ and one is /Q/ (in SAMPA).

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The /h/ and the /w/ are functioning like "soft" consonants. In other words, neither of them can be pronounced without attaching a vowel sound to them, hence CONsonants

There is no /h/ and /w/ in the words "shah" and "shaw". There are the letters <h> and <w>, but it's a mistake to think that these letters are somehow determining which vowels you have in these words.

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Anonymous

#527998 Mon, 16 Jun 08 10:07 AM

I think it's a mistake to believe they don't as I very much say those two words differently. I guess it's a matter of dialect; their presence determines whether I say something which sounds similar to father or to caught. Just knock 'sh' from the front of each and you're left with words which should point to clearer pronunciations: "ah" as said when the light bulb of understanding goes off ("Ah, I get it now") and "aw" as expressed when you find something sad or sweet ("Aw, how cute").

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CalifJim

#529401 Thu, 19 Jun 08 03:46 AM

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I'm sure that in the word 'cow,' <w> is not functioning as a vowel.

So then it's a consonant, I suppose.

But then what are we to make of the people who wrote the rule on forming past tenses when they said:

If a word ends in a single stressed vowel and a single final consonant (hop, sip, etc., and like bow or cow, presumably, if w is indeed a consonant), then form the past by doubling the final consonant and adding "ed".

So the past of these verbs is then "bowwed" and "cowwed"? No. That's not right!

I don't think the guys that wrote that rule were thinking of w in bow or cow as a consonant.

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#529440 Thu, 19 Jun 08 05:39 AM

You've got it backwards.

The grammarians who apply the rules are trying to make sense of something that develops organically. The terms that are applied to the phenomenon of language are far more concrete than the rules that are created by observation of its use.

The reason this should be clear is the sheer number exceptions to 'rules' there are in English.

But the line between consonant and vowel is deliberately clear.

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