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W is a vowel

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CalifJim  #529896  Fri, 20 Jun 08 05:28 AM
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the sheer number exceptions to 'rules'
So then you think the rule should say to double the final consonant except when the final consonant is a "w"?

CJ 

  
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Forbes  #530089  Fri, 20 Jun 08 01:41 PM
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But the line between consonant and vowel is deliberately clear.


I do not think it necessarily is.

If we start with a definition that a vowel is a sound articulated without any obstruction of the vocal tract and that a consonant is a sound that is articulated with an obstruction, then we do not have any difficulty deciding that /a/ is a vowel and /k/ is a consonant. However, some sounds are tricky and are really intermediate, notably /l/ as well as  /j/ and /w/. /j/ and /w/ are especially problematic and are variously described as semi-vowels, non-syllabic vowels and approximants. To an extent, how you look at it depends on whether your analysis is phonetic (you are concentrating on how the sound is articulated) or phonological (you are concentrating on how the sound functions). The two approaches are not exclusive.

Another way of defining a consonant is to say that it is a sound that cannot on its own form a syllable; this is suggested by the word itself, etymologically, a sound that is articulated with another. This is how I think a consonant is generally thought of and that is, at least in part, motivated by the fact that English is written with an alphabetic script, that is it analyses speech in segments smaller than syllables. If this definition is followed, then there is no difficulty in regarding /j/ and /w/ as consonants. However, it needs to be borne in mind that, where a language is written in an alphabetic script, the analysis has already been made and this unduly influences the way people think about "letters" - in particular it leads to the confusion of symbol with sound. The problem is particularly acute with English which has more phonemes than there are letters in the alphabet; not only does it exhibit polyvalence (the use of a sign to represent more than one sound, as well as the representation of a sound in more than one way) but it uses it in quite a complex way - just think of mad/made or caning/canning.

The letter <w> is especially versatile:

In want it functions as a consonant according to my second definition

In cow it functions as the second element of a dipthong

In follow it is only really there because English is not keen on words ending in <o>

In wren it is silent

The question "Is w a vowel?" is deceptively simple. When it comes to the sound it depends on how you look at it; when it comes to the symbol it depends on what word it appears in.
  
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shaved  #530186  Fri, 20 Jun 08 04:14 PM
Forbes
another way of defining a consonant is to say that it is a sound that cannot on its own form a syllable
 

 

 this is what the word consonant means

 

you cannot pronounce W without attaching a vowel to it

 

 

Case closed 

  
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Anonymous  #533547  Fri, 27 Jun 08 11:31 PM
Well, that is One definition, and, If you choose that One Definition,  then -- case closed...
  
Alarix  #536779  Fri, 04 Jul 08 09:48 PM
I broadly agree with the opinions here. Still, there is yet another dimension to this problem - for example, if one takes the evolution of w, then in the most often used words like wh- questions one has to consider that one day the Why, where, who, what etc. used to be spelt Qui, Quo, Quand etc. You can still hear it in certain dialects where h- is still placed in the front of w-, so you hear rather hwy, hwat, hwere.
So although it is today in the difficult category, in the old days when it had been first introduced into the English alphabet, it did not look like a problem. Smile
  
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shaved  #541891  Tue, 15 Jul 08 05:08 PM

Anonymous
Well, that is One definition, and, If you choose that One Definition,  then -- case closed...

 

that 'One Definition' (capitalized to maintain the previous poster's emphasis) happens to be the one that is based on the etymology of the word

 any other definitions have been added after the fact, meaning that they have been tacked on to a word that was invented to describe a particular phenomenon (letters that cannot be pronounced alone)

 

So, implying that my perspective on the subject is limited is a pointless and ineffective argument, considering the fact that the 'One Definition' happens to be the original and CORRECT definition of the word.

  
Forbes  #542304  Wed, 16 Jul 08 11:53 AM
It is unwise to rely on the etymology of a word to discern its meaning, or, if it has a range of meanings, to insist that the "original" meaning is somehow "more correct" . Words mean what they mean. In any discussion of the meaning of a word it is often instructive to look at its etymology as a starting point, but once you have done that you have to move on.

The problem with defining a consonant as a sound that cannot stand on its own is that you then need to go on and ask: "If it cannot stand on its own what does it have to go with?" and the answer to that will be "a vowel". So you then ask: "What is a vowel?" If your answer to that is "any sound that is not a consonant" we end up with consonant being defined in terms of vowels and vowels in terms of consonants, which is not very helpful. That means you need to define one or the other in its own terms and without reference to the other.

If we decide we shall start with defining a vowel, a reasonable enough definition is one that says it is a sound that is made without any obstruction of the vocal tract. When we have done that we have to decide what sounds in the language we are looking at are vowels. When it comes to the sound /w/ we may have some difficulty in deciding. The tricky bit is (because at school we were taught that the vowels are a e i o u) that at the back of our mind is the idea that  /w/ ought to be a consonant and it is difficult to overcome it. This partly arises out the failure to distinguish between the sound /w/ and the symbol <w>. If the difficulties can be overcome, it is not totally unreasonable to come to the conclusion that /w/ is nothing but a short /u/. The articulation of /w/ does not seem to involve any obstruction of the vocal tract. If we move on and look at the contexts in which /w/ is found it is not unreasonable to conclude that it is never articulated on its own, or, as you put it "you cannot pronounce W without attaching a vowel to it." However (forgetting for a moment that we have not yet defined consonant) that does not justify us calling /w/ a consonant if we agree that its articulation does not involve any obstruction of the vocal tract. It is perhaps more apt to call /w/ a non-syllabic vowel - our definition of vowel does not imply that it must be capable of forming a syllable.

If we decide to start with defining a consonant as a sound that involves some obstruction of the vocal tract, I think we are going to come to the same difficulty when we get to /w/. [It would be tedious to set the process out as in the previous paragraph.]

The fact that in the IPA there are separate symbols /u/ and /w/ says something. I am not quite sure what it says, but the possibilities are:

1. There is a qualitative difference between the two

2. There is a quantitative difference between the two and it is useful to be able to indicate when the sound is syllabic and when it is not

3. The whole thing is confusion

It may be noted that any two phoneticians may disagree about whether a particular utterance should be transcribed using /u/ or /w/. To an extent the convention for a particular language may depend on whether that language has a separate symbol for /w/.

The fact that many languages have the sound /w/ but have no symbol <w> to represent it (instead using <u>) also says something. It says that the way that any language is written (if written with an alphabet) involves a prior analysis of its sounds. When we come to look at the language afresh we must not be unduly influenced by that prior analysis.

The questions raised by this thread arise partly because written English employs an alphabet. Apart from the fact that that leads to a confusion between sound and symbol, in an alphabetic system language is analysed into phonemes. That is fine as it means that only a relatively few symbols need to be employed and the success of alphabetic systems throughout the world speaks for itself. However, the analysis of speech into phonemes is artificial (though it does not seem so because of the way we write!) and the natural division of continuous speech is the syllable.
  
shaved  #542525  Wed, 16 Jul 08 07:25 PM

Let's take this a step at a time, Forbes...

Forbes
It is unwise to rely on the etymology of a word to discern its meaning, or, if it has a range of meanings, to insist that the "original" meaning is somehow "more correct" . Words mean what they mean. In any discussion of the meaning of a word it is often instructive to look at its etymology as a starting point, but once you have done that you have to move on.

 Unless the point was to say that the definitions have been intentionally muddled over time by people who have developed discriptive linguistic theories that have not panned out or provided additional understanding.  We use an alphabet in English. The letters of the alphabet are broken into two categories: consonants and vowels. The OP was wondering why the LETTER W isn't considered a vowel.  My answer was that the LETTER W does not function as a vowel by itself, ever. Vowels have to be able to FUNCTION as vowels BY THEMSELVES. The LETTER W never does this.

Forbes
The problem with defining a consonant as a sound that cannot stand on its own is that you then need to go on and ask: "If it cannot stand on its own what does it have to go with?" and the answer to that will be "a vowel". So you then ask: "What is a vowel?" If your answer to that is "any sound that is not a consonant" we end up with consonant being defined in terms of vowels and vowels in terms of consonants, which is not very helpful. That means you need to define one or the other in its own terms and without reference to the other.

There is no reason to automatically assume that vowels would be defined in terms of consonants. 'Vowel' has its own definition independant of that of consonants.  Your argument here is pointless, as nobody in this thread has tried to define these two words in terms of each other.

Forbes
If we decide we shall start with defining a vowel, a reasonable enough definition is one that says it is a sound that is made without any obstruction of the vocal tract. When we have done that we have to decide what sounds in the language we are looking at are vowels. When it comes to the sound /w/ we may have some difficulty in deciding. The tricky bit is (because at school we were taught that the vowels are a e i o u) that at the back of our mind is the idea that  /w/ ought to be a consonant and it is difficult to overcome it. This partly arises out the failure to distinguish between the sound /w/ and the symbol <w>. If the difficulties can be overcome, it is not totally unreasonable to come to the conclusion that /w/ is nothing but a short /u/. The articulation of /w/ does not seem to involve any obstruction of the vocal tract. If we move on and look at the contexts in which /w/ is found it is not unreasonable to conclude that it is never articulated on its own, or, as you put it "you cannot pronounce W without attaching a vowel to it." However (forgetting for a moment that we have not yet defined consonant) that does not justify us calling /w/ a consonant if we agree that its articulation does not involve any obstruction of the vocal tract. It is perhaps more apt to call /w/ a non-syllabic vowel - our definition of vowel does not imply that it must be capable of forming a syllable.

I can't come up with a single instance in which the LETTER W is pronounced in an English word without any obstruction of the vocal tract.  Pursing one's lips to articulate the sound is, without a doubt, an obstruction of the vocal tract.

 

Forbes
However, the analysis of speech into phonemes is artificial (though it does not seem so because of the way we write!) and the natural division of continuous speech is the syllable

When looking at how a syllable is produced, one will never find an example in the English language of a syllable that is produced entirely by the LETTER W.  It is for this reason (and the other one) that one cannot call the LETTER W a vowel. 

1) the sounds that the LETTER W represents cannot be pronounced without obstruction of the vocal tract (however small the obstruction is)

2) the sounds that the LETTER W represents cannot be pronounced on their own (without attaching another sound to them)

 

I seriously don't see the case being presented for W being a vowel- no matter how esoteric the discriptive linguistics get.

  
Forbes  #543544  Sat, 19 Jul 08 03:17 PM
I am not sure I can say anything further without repeating myself.

I think we should go back to the second post in this thread:

J Lewis
The problem with any category is that once you have established it you will always find something that doesn't quite fit. The Letters W and Y both have something of a vowel and something of a consonant about them. Fittingly they are known as semi-vowels.


That just about sums it up really.
  
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