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Taka  #536483  Fri, 04 Jul 08 02:53 AM
You need to learn what is normal and expected in our community.

About 'what' in red, is it:

(1)an interrogative word

(2)that which/the thing which

(3)ambiguous

?

  
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CalifJim  #536486  Fri, 04 Jul 08 02:58 AM
 (3)

CJ 

  
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"There are no facts, only interpretations" - Nietzsche
Taka  #536489  Fri, 04 Jul 08 03:08 AM
Great! Then you find the same ambiguity here?

 

They now understand a verbal desciription of what they are learning.

  
CalifJim  #536494  Fri, 04 Jul 08 03:23 AM
This one leans much more toward that which.

I work this out by substituting other indirect questions like whether It is permitted.  If a large range of indirect questions doesn't work, I suspect that only that which is the correct interpretation.

a description of whether it is permitted doesn't work for my ear, so I think that which is probably a better characterization in that case.

learn whether it is permitted does work for me, as well as learn that which is permitted, so there I see a greater possibility for ambiguity. 

The verbs of knowing, finding out, and learning tend to be followed by indirect questions, so when these are followed by what, where, whether, how, etc., I am suspicious that an indirect question is a possible interpretation, along with the that which interpretation, thereby creating the ambiguity you called attention to in your original post.

CJ 

  
Taka  #536519  Fri, 04 Jul 08 04:14 AM
Hmm...These 'what's are interrogative, aren't they?

e.g:

A: What did you learn there?

B: Well, it's going to be a bit complicated.

A: That's OK. Your own description of what you learned. We are all here to enjoy your story that you've brought back.

  
CalifJim  #536521  Fri, 04 Jul 08 04:22 AM
I think of the first one as interrogative, but not the second.  I have heard that second underlined clause called "a fused relative construction".

Many of these grammatical terms, like 'interrogative', are not as tightly defined as the terms used in mathematics, so it is sometimes hopeless to try to disentangle the meanings with mathematical precision.

I don't think there's any problem if you want to say that both of these have interrogative aspects.

CJ 

  
Taka  #536526  Fri, 04 Jul 08 04:40 AM
CalifJim

 it is sometimes hopeless to try to disentangle the meanings with mathematical precision.

I don't think there's any problem if you want to say that both of these have interrogative aspects.

CJ 

 

So it's not that the last one is clearly #2. OK.

Jim, some of my books say if the verb in 'SV+what' is 'ask', 'inquire', or 'wonder', the 'what' is an interrogative word whereas if it's 'eat', 'give', 'believe' or 'do', it's 'that which.' Would you come up with any exceptions?

  
CalifJim  #536557  Fri, 04 Jul 08 07:38 AM
It's unclear what you want exceptions to.

It would be much easier to come up with additions.

ask, inquire, wonder, guess, know, learn, find out, decide, and any cases with the infinitive after the wh- word are typically the interrogative case.  Also in this category are many negative expressions of not knowing:  I can't imagine, I have no idea, ...

We learned how to read Japanese.

Do you have any idea what she said?

I can guess very easily who was there. 

Have you found out who signed the document?

Jane asked what to do.

I wonder if Ken is going to be there.

I don't know whether to go or to stay.

No one could decide what to do. 

_____ 

In my opinion, there are many ambiguous cases.

CJ 

 

  
Taka  #536694  Fri, 04 Jul 08 06:05 PM
Sorry, it wasn't clear. 

 

I'm wondering if there is a case where, for example, the interpretation of 'S ask what... ' could be either 'S ask what:interrogative...' or S ask that/which...'

  
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