Hi Jack-in-the-Box,

I was I referring to was the fact that we Germans are facing quite a number of challenges right now it's high time to start taking a different view on things including such greetings like 'Mahlzeit', the fact that most Germans learn English at school for 5 - 9 years and then they watch American movies in films on TV and in the cinema in dubbed versions because they wouldn't understand the original versions. Yes, the Germans are a great nation but like it or not we have to re-consider quite a lot of our beloved habits and traditions.
I live in a Federal State of Germany where the nationalistic right-wing party has about the same number of seats in the parliament as the Social Democrats. So, at any rate it's time to re-analyze the state our nation is in and take a closer look at some of the obvious contraditions. Maybe, I could be more diplomatic and less 'offensive' but then my tone might trigger a discussion that eventually leads to new ideas instead of the 'Germany is a great country - everything is coming up roses' attitude.

interested one:
>>>> "Pemmican is not right about our pride. Sure we hardly ever say that we are proud to be German. But thats not because of Hitler and the second world war. Germans are proud of their constitution, their culture. Germans are proud to be Westphalians, Bavarians, Frisians, Swabs and Frankians. They were proud of the Deutschmark, of the strong economy. A national feeling of belonging never really existed in Germany and if it did, Hitler killed it. Thats one problem, non-Germans do not see."


I don't think that I'm wrong, interested one. Actually the problem is not the pride, the problem is 'to say that you're proud of being German and that DOES have something to do with WW2.
You will hardly hear a German saying he's proud of being a German - because if a German says that, everyone would think, he's a Nazi - and that's why Germans do not say it. In the following step then you're right, interested one: Germans are proud to be Westphalians, Bavarians, Frisians, Swabs, etc., they are proud of their strong economy, they also were proud of the Deutschmark, but they are not proud of being a German - as you said, that's the national feeling of belonging which doesn't exist anymore - you mentioned the reason yourself: It was killed - by Hitler!

Cheers,
Pemmican

For "www.english-test.net":

"So, at any rate it's time to re-analyze the state our nation is in and take a closer look at some of the obvious contraditions."

All right, and thank you for your answer. I certainly agree with you in that contradictions must be solved, not denied. But I'm not sure I always agree with you as to what these contradictions are and how they should be solved.

As far as "Mahlzeit" is concerned, sorry, but I don't think this is one of the major German contradictions, and I really can't see why you should stop using this greeting. It sounds friendly to me: meals are very important social occasions, of course.

As for films, they're nearly always dubbed in Italy, too, and I think it's a good thing: though I like learning foreign languages and hearing them, I find it very fatiguing always to have to move my eyes from the higher part of the screen, where the images appear, to the lower one, to read the subtitles. After all, the main purpose of films is not to teach foreign languages, and people aren't obliged to know, or to want to learn, Chinese or Swedish, and not even English. Furthermore, if the dubbing is good and a correct pronunciation is used, this is a very important way of spreading the knowledge of the standard language.
You say that most Germans learn English at school for many years but are then unable to understand it, or (I suppose) to speak it properly. I believe you, but I don't believe this problem is peculiar to Germany: in Italy, for example, the situation is very much the same. There may be many reasons for that: unsuited methods, bad teachers... (And, incidentally, I don't think that the English speaking peoples are usually enthusiastically interested in learning foreign languages.)

"I live in a Federal State of Germany where the nationalistic right-wing party has about the same number of seats in the parliament as the Social Democrats."
I'm not German, and I may be wrong. But in every European country there are radical right (and radical left) parties: I certainly don't like them, but it's a physiological, normal fact (at least within certain limits). If one or two of those parties receive a certain amount of votes in Germany, the newspapers begin to talk about nazism and a nazi peril; but are they really different from, say, the French "National front"?

But I understand that these are only examples.

"So, at any rate it's time to re-analyze the state our nation is in and take a closer look at some of the obvious contraditions. Maybe, I could be more diplomatic and less 'offensive' but then my tone might trigger a discussion that eventually leads to new ideas instead of the 'Germany is a great country - everything is coming up roses' attitude."

All right: I don't like the "everything is coming up roses" attitude either, and there are certainly a lot of problems in Germany, as everywhere in Europe. You seem to be somehow embittered, and have perhaps good reasons for that: you probably come from the former German democratic republic, don't you? If you do, you have experienced all the disasters of communism, and are now experiencing that to live in a democracy is not so easy, because life and politics are usually very complicated.
But, to solve our problems, you seem to advocate an imitation of American social and cultural models. It isn't a good idea, in my opinion: we Europeans have a tradition and a history that's very different from the American ones, and the subjection to the American culture is already by far too great in Europe. I think that we should find answers mainly in ourselves, not across the Ocean. (I don't want to offend the American users of this forum: I've nothing against America, but I dislike xenomania.)

As I said, I'm not German, and you may think that I shouldn't talk about things that I can't know directly. But I love Germany, and furthermore there are many similarities between Germany and Italy, especially in the present post-war historical period.

Thank you again, and best wishes to you and to Germany.

Hello Jack-in-the-box,

I totally agree with you, it's excactly my opinion (and I'm sure most of the Germans' opinion, too).
I also hope that a certain degree of national feelings would come back, and actually there is something that I could notice during the past 4 or 5 years: When I was on a trip down to Munich by train, every once in a while, I saw a few German flags placed in some people's gardens. It is sort of strange to see it because you could hardly find that until about 5 or 10 years before, you hardly could see any German flags anywhere (except on top of government buildings) and that's something I find remarkable, even though it still is a bit strange for me. See, if someone has/had a flag in the garden, then it's usually a flag of a country, people like, very often it's the American flag (My aunt e.g. has an American flag in her garden, and one from Florida).

Reactions after the war - Germany was divided into 4 sectors: The American sector, the British sector, the French one (West-Germany) and the Russian sector (East-Germany).
Public and also political life was especially in the very first years in West-Germany (until 1957) looked-over by these 3 victors until West-Germany got back it's soverignity. (The French left Germany very early, there are a few Americans still here who have military bases esp. in the South of Germany, and there are still many British soldiers in the North). East-Germany was mainly ruled by the Russian government until 1990.
The necessity of reconstruction may have also been a reason why the problem was kept aside for a while. Now, the older generation who experienced WW2 themselves is going to die - but you could and can notice, that these people start to work up these difficult situations especially in their retirement age (maybe because they have more time to really be able to think about the past).

I do also agree with you, that our history should be regarded from a rational, objective point of view, which would be a solution. But people first need to work up these horrible happenings themselves and only then it's possible for them to have a look from another side to the history.
You're no lecturer, Jack, neither are you a foreigner! You are someone who can help people handle situations because you are one of those who have similar experiences in your country but a look from another side on Germany's and even Europe's history - so thank you very much for taking part in this discussion.
Best wishes from Germany
Cheers,
Pemmican