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What is a Holy war?

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Sara Straight & Tall  #371005  Sun, 27 May 07 02:55 AM

Bit long, but I'll try.

1/ In which case, it's an over-simplification to say that "History is written by the victors"

The History is always written by the victors. Sometimes it takes a long time to challenge, and change, the "official" version.

We had 40 years of "official" version of History as seen by a dictator. Don't tell me.

1/ Every schoolboy or schoolgirl who studies the subject in an English school will encounter your "corrected" version; there is nothing daring or challenging about it.

Yes, now. But if I remember rightly, Richard III died around 1480 or so (sorry, I have no time to google anything). It was not until the XVIII century that his name was cleared. So the official version took quite a long time to be challenged.

3/ That's a much more reasonable statement than your earlier remark that if Germany had won the Second World War, "each and every one of us" here would think you were "vermin".

Yep, that was an exaggeration OK. Of course not every person in the whole wide world have one same thought. But antisemitism, (and racism) exist, you know.

4/ The contradiction lies in maintaining on the one hand that Caesar, as "victor", decided the facts of history with his DBG, while implying on the other hand that you have access to some alternative version of events.

Same answer as in 1.

5/ The passage you quote occurs in Suetonius's discussion of Caesar's "clemency", of which he has just enumerated examples.

The passage states Julius Caesar's ambition. Written many years after his death. I've no time to check Cato now, but he stated much the same. he said something similar to "Caesar was the only one who tried to revolt against the Republic who was not a drunk".

6/ I'm not aware that we've discussed Richard III before. 

I was not aware we were discussing some Polish soldiers in WWII until you mentioned them.

7/ So I'm not quite sure how your comments about him represent a "challenge" to my view of him. And as I've already said, your "corrected" view of Richard III is itself quite conventional.

The challenge lies in a Spaniard discussing English History  with a Brit Smile [:)]. As far as I understand, Alexa was not challenging you personally, but rather saying that events X in History were not put into question during a long time.  I don't think, either, that the "corrected" version of Richard III is "hers", conventional or not.

  
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Sara Straight & Tall  #371011  Sun, 27 May 07 03:07 AM
 MrPedantic wrote:

"Der Sieger wird später nicht danach gefragt, ob er die Wahrheit gesagt hat oder nicht."

Adolf Hitler am 22. August 1939

"The victor will never be asked later, whether he told the truth or not."
 
MrP

Yep. History is written by the victors. We had to study the victor's version of the Spanish Civil war for 40 years. It was not after the dictator was dead that someone dared challenge it. The ones who dared do it before, either landed in prison or in exile.

Damn, how tired I am.

Mr P. we've wandered so far off topic that I don't know really what we are discussing now.

What is a Holy war?

I still think that no war is ever holy. No event that brings destruction and death can be holy. From my point of view.

Yours, of course, may be different.

  
Stannum  #371074  Sun, 27 May 07 06:50 AM

Truth is not negotiable.

Stannum

Edited by mod to remove that big quote that takes up a lot of space.

  
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Alexa For Australia  #371228  Sun, 27 May 07 05:16 PM

So I'm not quite sure how your comments about him represent a "challenge" to my view of him. And as I've already said, your "corrected" view of Richard III is itself quite conventional.

Mr. Pedantic:

I wasn't challenging your point of view about anyone. I haven't got the least idea about your points of view, so how can I challenge any? I'm Spanish, not stupid. But I forgot that second person plus subjunctive in Spanish does not translate as second person plus indicative in English, but to "one, anyone, someone" plus indicative. The meaning changes, so you rightly took my statement as a challenge to you.

It wasn't.

"My" corrected version is not mine, of course. There are two versions of the story, Thomas More's and Horace Walpole's. If you don't count William Shakespeare's, mind you.

It was just an statement trying to prove that a biased version can survive in History for a very long time without anyone questioning it.

Badly worded, but then, that is to be expected, of course.

My choice of words is poorer than yours, and you can destroy my arguments with one word. English is your native language, but not mine. My points are easily lost in translation.

But it was a challenge all right, the last paragraph at least. For me. I am pleased that you took so much time and space discussing with me. It improves my English.

  
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MrPedantic  #371249  Sun, 27 May 07 06:16 PM

Mr P. we've wandered so far off topic that I don't know really what we are discussing now.

During the discussion of "the just war", someone introduced the statement "history is written by the victors".

This doesn't seem quite accurate to me; hence the subsequent discussion.

 Sara wrote:

how tired I am.

(Sorry, my posts were too long.)

MrP

  
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