 Veteran Member 10,726   I was working on the proof of one of my poems all the morning, and took out a comma. In the afternoon I put it back again. Oscar Wilde (1854 - 1900) I take the professor's comments to be made in a context where he is discussing "Englishes" and not literary criticism.How though do we assess the "intended effect" of an utterance, where we can't quiz the speaker? MrP Veteran Member 12,806  ...opella forensis / adducit febris... Anonymous: <How though do we assess the "intended effect" of an utterance, where we can't quiz the speaker?>With difficulty, but we take guesses, make assumptions, etc, don't we? With difficulty, but we take guesses, make assumptions, etc, don't we?So, if I understand you correctly: in the case of a speaker we can't quiz, so far as the language used furthers the writer's intended effect (which we have to guess at), it is good; but so far as it fails to further that effect (which we have guessed at), it is bad; no matter how 'correct' it may be. But isn't that a little circular? You would be assessing how the language used furthers the intended effect, after inferring the intended effect from the language used. MrP Veteran Member 12,806 ...opella forensis / adducit febris... Anonymous: Did I say that guesses and assumptions were a useful thing? Saying that, you take guesses and make assumptions regularly and on many forums. Normally, when the writer is absent, you insist, in post after post, that your inferences are correct................................ I have a feeling this is what Prof Perrin was getting at, don't you? Let's talk about the writer knowing his intended effect and then being told by prescriptivists, for example, that his choice of language, style, etc. is not suitable, not correct. Let's imagine the same writer changes his choice of language, style, etc. to keep the above "critics" happy and then feels that the, supposedly correct, language used no longer furhters his/her intended effect. What advice would you give to that writer? I have a feeling this is what Prof Perrin was getting at, don't you?That rather neatly illustrates the central paradox: You only have a feeling about the professor's "intended effect" in the very statement in which he emphasises the importance of knowing a speaker's "intended effect". MrP Veteran Member 12,806 ...opella forensis / adducit febris... Anonymous:
Having regard to the heading of this thread, I take the professor's comments to be made in a context where he is discussing "Englishes" and not literary criticism. I think they are highly pertinent. One the one hand, it is perfectly in order for a community to adopt another language, do what they like with it and insist that their variety of it is "correct". On the other, if they do that, they cannot complain if they produce a text aimed at other speakers of the language who use different a different variety and who misunderstand it or fail to understand it at all because of differences between the varieties. Veteran Member 10,726 I was working on the proof of one of my poems all the morning, and took out a comma. In the afternoon I put it back again. Oscar Wilde (1854 - 1900) Anonymous: <Having regard to the heading of this thread, I take the professor's comments to be made in a context where he is discussing "Englishes" and not literary criticism.>MrP's reply to that comment would be: 'You only have a feeling about the professor's "intended effect" in the very statement in which he emphasises the importance of knowing a speaker's "intended effect".', but I agree with you. <On the other, if they do that, they cannot complain if they produce a text aimed at other speakers of the language who use different a different variety and who misunderstand it or fail to understand it at all because of differences between the varieties.> Would you say the same of those native British and American English speakers, for example, who attempt to maintain and market a form of English that may not be to the taste and needs of other groups of English speakers? <However, any choice needs to be an informed choice and the reason they are learning English needs to be taken into account.> I agree. I find that many native British and American English speakers make massive assumptions about which form learners will choose to learn. <What needs to be avoided is a community, or a small section section of a community, deliberately creating its own "English" in some misguided attempt to produce some variety that is peculiar to the community.> If that variety is only meant for "home" or intranational use, what's the problem? More
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